Bitters lack maltiness

[Underthethumb]

Has anyone got any ideas?

My stouts are really good but my Bitters seem to lack maltiness. Hop flavour is not a problem but the malt doesn't come through strongly enough.

I am treating my water with DLS and CRS as per brupacks website to leave me somewhere around these values:

CaCO3 Calcium
40 200

Pretty standard ingredients:
Pale Malt 4600
Torrefied wheat 250
Crystal Malt 300

Mash at 67C and batch sparge.

I ferment at 19C for about a week using Nottingham. Up the temp for a couple of days to 21C and then cold crash for a couple of days at 4C before bottling

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[jimp2003]

Your grain bill and mash temp etc are similar to my bitters but mine don't suffer from a lack of maltiness. I am not into water chemistry to a standard to say if yours might be the problem but I can say that I don't like Nottingham yeast for a bitter.

For me Nottingham has too high attenuation and I find it seems to leave a more mineraly edge than say S04 or one of the liquid yeasts like WLP002 or 005. It might be trying a different yeast that will accentuate the malt more...

[Underthethumb]

Your grain bill and mash temp etc are similar to my bitters but mine don't suffer from a lack of maltiness. I am not into water chemistry to a standard to say if yours might be the problem but I can say that I don't like Nottingham yeast for a bitter.

For me Nottingham has too high attenuation and I find it seems to leave a more mineraly edge than say S04 or one of the liquid yeasts like WLP002 or 005. It might be trying a different yeast that will accentuate the malt more...

Cheers - your not the first person to suggest a yeast change

[alix101]

I agree Nottingham is a very clean tasting yeast excellent in IPA s etc and maybe what your not tasting is the complexity other years will provide.. Experiment with some tried and tested yeasts...London ale yeast and English ale yeast there is a reason why they are revered.
Try adding some biscuit malt to around 10% this will also help.

[Dennis King]

I would also look at the yeast. Along with the whitelabs ones mentioned I would add WLP028 Scottish. You could also try caramelising the first runnings.

[guypettigrew]

You may want to try out the water analysis by Murphy's.

It gave me a different result from the Brupaks information. Using the suggested values and method from the Murphy's analysis has improved the taste of my beers and has brought all the flavours out much better.

Guy

[IanCompetent]

It could have to do with your finishing gravity. If the gravity is low and you are using a high-attenuating yeast, then it may just be a matter of watching the gravity more closely and sampling it at a higher reading. I know nothing of the Nottingham strain - I use Wyeast's 1098 "British Ale" and it gives a lovely sweet, fruity and malty finish. I also find that Bitters using that strain taste best around 1.010 or 1.011. Not sure if you guys have that in the UK or not, but I swear by it for English-style beers. By comparison, Wyeast's 1968 "London ESB Ale" is dry and spicy and (although the website states otherwise) not quite as malty.

I also concur with alix101 - Biscuit malt gives a toasty maltiness to Bitters. I absolutely love the stuff. Also, try some Melanoidin or Honey malt to the tune of 5-10% of your grist. Both impart a sweet, malty flavour. I do 5.7% Melanoidin in my Citra-hopped Best Bitter and it adds great balance and residual sweetness that offset the rather pungent hops perfectly.

Good luck!!

Edit - should also add that you could try Wyeast's 1084 "Irish Ale" which is malty with a more neutral finish or 1728 "Scottish Ale" which is quite malty, sweet and rounded.

[mabrungard]

From the limited information given on the water and its treatment, it appears that you are brewing with a LOT of mineralization in your water. The first thing I would try is rolling back those ionic concentrations to more reasonable levels. Good Bitters are made with calcium less than 100 ppm, with sulfate less than 300 ppm, and with chloride less than 70 ppm. If your water or water treatment recommendations are pushing those concentrations well above those ranges, the minerals are going to overshadow the malts.

You can't always ADD minerals to water to make it better for brewing. Sometimes nature supplies water that is not well suited for brewing and the best correction is to dilute it to reduce excessive mineralization.

[Blackaddler]

My stouts are really good but my Bitters seem to lack maltiness.

You don't say what sort of bitterness levels you're aiming for. If your hop rate is on the high side, it could be overshadowing the maltiness. It's easily done [depends on your palate].

GeneraIly, I use low-ish hop rates, and don't add much in the way of late hops, because my palate will only taste the hops.

It's not the yeast [unless it's the way your using it]. I only brew with Nottingham, and have no trouble brewing malty beers... as do many micros.

So, if you're happy with your hop rate, then it could be a good idea to have another look at your water treatment, before you go changing too many things.

[Martin G]

A helpful chap at Brewlabs advised me that for hoppy beer the sulphate to chloride should be 2sulphate:1chloride and vice versa for a malt dominated beer. Might be worth working out your sulphate to chloride ratio if you have not already, may be another parameter to play with.

[Underthethumb]

Thanks again for all the advice. Water treatment is definitely something I'm hazy on and need to look at more closely

[simple one]

How's about using more specialty malt? Instead of using 5% crystal, try using 10-15% light crystal or 10-15% amber malt.
You will not believe the flavours you can create by upping amounts, whilst keeping colour down. 20% amber in a low gravity beer will give an unbelievable strong coffee flavour, whilst still being golden-ruby in colour.

[seymour]

How's about using more specialty malt? Instead of using 5% crystal, try using 10-15% light crystal or 10-15% amber malt.
You will not believe the flavours you can create by upping amounts, whilst keeping colour down. 20% amber in a low gravity beer will give an unbelievable strong coffee flavour, whilst still being golden-ruby in colour.

I agree. Increase your crystal/caramel malt percentage, decrease your water treatments, switch to a less attenuating yeast such as Fullers or Windsor, maybe even raise your mash temp ever-so-slightly. Another fun trick is to draw several pints of the first-runnings into a separate pot, and boil into a thick syrup, eventually adding back into the main boil. This lends a rich, caramelly, sticky-toffee-like, fruity sweetness.

[Underthethumb]

Just a quick update as the latest bitter is now ready. I think i've cracked it with your help. I did 4 things:

1/ Used GW's water treatment calculator for the first time
2/ Eased right back on the aroma hops
3/ Added some Amber malt to the recipe
4/ Used S04 instead of Nottingham yeast

Thanks again to all on Jim's.