BIAB or traditional AG brewing?

[Ben711200]

Hi,

I'm just starting off with AG brewing and had settled on BIAB being my method of choice, but the more I read, the more apparent it is that I'm only a mash tun short of the absolute essential/most basic equipment I would need to brew more traditionally, though this is assuming that I'd sparge straight through the mash tun rather than using a separate lauter tun and would use this converted stock pot as both HLT and boiler.


So my questions are- Other than increased possible brewlength for a given boiler size, what advantages are there to doing traditional AG over BIAB? And disadvantages (length of time in a brewday?)
This is probably very naive, but I can't really see that there is much between them at all, certainly not enough for BIAB to be considered a 'lesser' form of brewing when you're using the same ingredients and going through the same processes to turn them to into your wort (albeit combining your mash and sparge into one step).


I've asked here, rather than the BIAB section as I think it more likely that people will have progressed here from BIAB than the other way round, even if I'm struggling to pinpoint why

Or have I asked one of those questions that opens a can of worms?

[timbo41]

Much like yourself, I would say my method is a hybrid of ag and biab in that I don't have a mash tun,but do have a burco boiler in which I do as close to a full volume bag mash as possible. Then I sparge the bag into an old fv while the boil gets going,adding the sparge runnings periodically. I don't add them in one hit due to a near boilover! Hops go in in another big bag,just to avoid blockups. I imagine most purists would be critical of this method, saying that my efficiencies will be down. That always seems to be the most common point of contention between the two methods,but I can go from start mash to start chill in 2 1/2 hours,have minimal clean up( use hot chill runnings to clean and sanitise),and haven't lashed out on loads of kit

[Matt12398]

BIAB will make good beer and it's what I did before traditional all grain. It's a good way of working out if it's for you before spending even more money.

I've heard people say that BIAB can lead to clarity issues due to more of the fine particulate grain material finding its way into the boiler because you're mashing in the boiler and you aren't able to establish a grain bed like you do in a mash tun through which you can recirculate the first runnings and then let the wort flow into your boiler. I don't think I necessarily found that to be the case though but it has been said.

The things I didn't like about BIAB are things like my mash efficiency was always low for me. I've heard people say they get good efficiency but I think generally most people experience an efficiency drop.

Also I found it to be inconsistent. For example when you lift out the grain bag you let it drain in a bucket and add to the boiler once drained but the amount drained varied depending on whether you rung out the grain bag or not and how much. I didn't feel it gave me the consistency I was looking for.

Brewing software such as Beersmith doesn't tend to be as well set up for BIAB either.

I think if you are totally convinced that all grain is for you and you have the money to buy all of the equipment go straight in and get a mash tun. I find the mash and sparge the most enjoyable part of the beer making process, it gives you a better chance of repeating a brew with the same results and is more aligned to the traditional beer making process. No doubt though there are people who will disagree but that's what I found.

[Redimpz]

I started BIAB as it appeared to be an easier cheaper alternative to traditional AG and kits. When I started I mashed in my boil pot and restricted my recipes to 19l from byobra. Due to lack of space my efficiency was lower than it should have been. In addition to this I had to be wary of my grain bill as sometimes it was a struggle to get it all in the pot.
By using an old cool box as a mash tun I managed to move up to the 23l recipes, my efficiency was still a bit down but by increasing my sparging and using more boiling pots (still not bought a big pot) I am now managing to get the expected efficiency. (I judge this by having almost 23l of unfermented chilled wort at the expected starting gravity just prior to adding the yeast).
Clarity has never been an issue, I made several brews last year using pale malt and hops with no added speciality grains and they all came out as clear as anyone would wish for.
The only real change I would look to make would be with the boiling kit. It takes some time for my 15l pot to get to the boil on my stove top which makes me reluctant to buy a 30/50l pot as it may well struggle to get boiling. (unless I invest in a gas bottle and boiling ring and move it all outdoors). My other option would be to look at a 40l Buffalo electric boiler.
Consistancy has not been an issue either, apart from some minor improvements I have made to my methods I generally do the same thing. (sparge the same amount of water and squeeze the bag to the same degree)
I started with BIAB as a tester into the world of AG but at this time I see no need to move to the traditional way as I am quite happy with my results and the only change to my methods would be the already mentioned boiling pan.

[Steve B]

I do both. I tend to do BIAB when I suddenly have a bit of time free unexpectedly and fancy brewing, and traditional approach when I've planned ahead.

TO be honest, I'd be hard pressed to tell which was which when drinking the finished product!

[jimp2003]

I do both. I tend to do BIAB when I suddenly have a bit of time free unexpectedly and fancy brewing, and traditional approach when I've planned ahead.

TO be honest, I'd be hard pressed to tell which was which when drinking the finished product!

+1 to this.

I started all-grain using the bag then moved to mainly three vessel but still use BIAB for small batches and impromptu brewdays.

[Kev888]

There isn't a great difference in the beer IMHO; its more about practical considerations. With BIAB you move the grain in and out of the water/wort, whilst with a 3-vessel system you move the water in and out of the grain, but they can still come together in the required way. Obvious differences are that BIAB gets notably more awkward as the batches get bigger (wet grain is heavy to move), but a BIAB system is much more compact (and quicker to clean etc).

It can also be easier to maintain stable mash temperature in a dedicated, insulated mash tun, though you can get very close using a normal boiler if you insulate it. It is possible to instead 'gently' top up heat whilst stirring or recirculating, using the element, but its harder to get consistent if you control it manually, and there's a danger of overheating the wort (which denatures the enzymes needed to make the sugars during the mash) or in extreme cases causes burnt tastes in it.

Probably the main thing is sparging - with a dedicated MT you can batch sparge or fly sparge relatively easily. Batch sparging would be a challenge without a separate grain vessel, and improvised fly-sparging through a simple grain bag (often in which the grain isn't suspended in liquor) works, but IMHO not nearly as well. Personally I prefer not to sparge with BIAB, and just accept the small hit in efficiency, as that seems much more suited to the simplified process - which I think is one of the joys of BIAB.

Thats partly because for me its more about consistency in quality, brew-to-brew, than extracting the last bit of stuff from the grain. So I have no problem with BIAB done well; I've had good consistency that way. With a 3-vessel system I get similarly good consistency plus better efficiency by sparging but mainly its easier with bigger batches so I normally brew this way. I've not got on so well with improvised BAIB sparging or using the element manually (except after the mash) - it works but for me at least it introduces more variation too.

Cheers
Kev

[Ben711200]

This is perfect feedback! Thank you all. I'll certainly have a go at BIAB first, but when I get a bit more time it looks like I'll be experimenting with variations of both. It's interesting that most don't seem to notice any difference in quality of the end result, even if the efficiency is a bit down. I guess it's one of those things I'll get a much better grasp of once I actually get stuck in

[Bribie]

As part of the Brisbane Brewing conference a couple of years ago, four beers (A UK Special Bitter) were brewed to the same recipe using a 3 vessel system, a Spiedel Braumeister, BIAB using a 40L electric urn and a "ghetto" system using a sort of home made Electrim "bucket o death" sparged through a plastic pail with lots of holes drilled in the bottom.

The brew day - at a commercial craft brewery who donated the space, electricity and washup facilities for the day - was monitored by neutral "inspectors" and the resulting beers were fermented in the brewery's fermentation and cold conditioning rooms, kegged and served at the lunch of the conference on the day in "tasting paddles" and voted on.

As it happened the BIAB brew won, but during the brewing process all the batches were tested using refractometer and all came out at 84% efficiency on that particular occasion.

Edit: most of the day was video'd and https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... E-GDkFsc1w, if you can make head or tail of it

[timbo41]

Am curious. Would raising temp slowly,after initial mash with grain bag in situ,negate the need to sparge. Keep, stirring grain to release sugars,until ?°, enzyme denaturing point reached,then allow bag to run off into boiler. Or is this getting into realms of decoction mash?. I'm lazy you understand Obviously,there will be greater loss due grain absorption

[Lars]

Am curious. Would raising temp slowly,after initial mash with grain bag in situ,negate the need to sparge. Keep, stirring grain to release sugars,until ?°, enzyme denaturing point reached,then allow bag to run off into boiler. Or is this getting into realms of decoction mash?. I'm lazy you understand Obviously,there will be greater loss due grain absorption

that's how it's done, mash out with bag in while stirring, pull bag and squeeze, there's probably less loss to grain than with traditional 3V

[timbo41]

Lars,I must have missed that somewhere . Was pulling bag then sparging into seperate vessel,adding runnings to boiler in increments to avoid boilover. But that was with my diy boiler,25 ltr fv. Now got 7 gallon burco,so can do narer full volume biab mash,so will give it a go. Can you suggest temp to pull bag,I mash a little high as I prefer a biy of body..not keen on thinner brews

[subfaction]

I do biab and have found a oven rack over the top of my buffalo works well, pull the bag stick it over the top whilst raising temp to boil, then I pour around 4 litres of ~75c treated water over it whilst slightly squeezing. Seems to make a big difference to efficiencies

[EoinMag]

BIAB is a subset of all-grain brewing and not something different, the method is different but the process is the same.
Just saying like, cos the thread title is not the best.

[Lars]

Timbo, just seeing this now so sorry for late reply but I raise temp to 76~78C pull bag and squeeze using saucepan lids.