Durden Park Enzymes

[minesapint]

Just read the Book " Old British Beers and How to Make Them " 3rd edtn. By Dr. John Harrison and Members of the Durden Park Beer Circle.

Interested in the Porters from the eighteen hundreds.
The mashes are mainly pale malt, amber malt , brown malt and fuggles, sometimes black malt as well.

The thing that I am floundering on is the instruction... " Will need a brewing enzyme for complete mashing "

Can any active brewer from The Durden Park Circle throw any light on this please? Or any one else that has practical experience of adding enzymes.

I am not after a chemistry lesson, just practical , tried and trusted information as to the enzyme product name, mail order availability and quantity to use and how.

By the way it's a nice book of old recipes and a little brewing history.

Cheers.

[Aleman]

I've used some of the enzymes from Murphys . . .Particularly the Biase, although it looks as though they have dropped that, The new alternative is Triase . . . It does the job well

Probably available in sensible quantities from thier homebrew shop

[jaroporter]

can you post any of the recipes that require enzymes? if it's a 19th century recipe then i'm guessing there could be high proportions of brown and amber malt (with no diatastic power/that contain negligable enzymes), coupled with an old british pale malt that would be low in diatastic power (read, low in diatastic enzymes).

without sufficient quantity of enzymes the mash wouldn't convert in the standard time, if it did fully complete.

unless there's something else going on in those recipes that hasn't been alluded to (i haven't read the book) i'd think that if you're using a modern pale malt, maris otter or something (that has a high diatastic power), you'd be fine brewing them without additional enzymes.

[Aleman]

Some of the recipes have no Pale in them, and the Modern Day Amber/Brown etc malts have Zero diastatic power which they would have had in the times the beer was being brewed.

As Mr Wheeler has alluded to several times on here Those recipes just won't work . . .unless you use an enzyme.

Amylogucosidase is another alternative, but only in a full boil situation, as it is quite happy sat at pasteruisation temps

[Hanglow]

There is one amber malt that has diastic power, it's belgian I think and you can get it from a few shops in the uk. Whether or not it would be enough would of course depend on the recipe

[minesapint]

Thank you to all for the swift responses to my problem.


Here are two representative Durden Park recipes for Porter as asked for.
Full acknowledgement to the Durden Park Circle.

Both "Will need added brewing enzyme to mash fully." as the text says.

1 1/2 lb pale malt, 1 lb 1oz ambermalt, 1 lb 1 oz brown malt, 2 1/4 oz fuggles.

1 1/4 lb pale malt, 1 1/4 lb amber malt, 1 1/4 lb brown malt, 3/4 oz fuggles.

Seems like I am not the first to experience a small set back on this topic.

Hopefully someone will come up with a working solution to the problem, Product names, availability and method of use etc.

Cheers all and thanks again for the interesting replies.

[barney]

I have just bought a sack of brown malt from Fawcetts will that not convert? What is the maximum percentage I can use and get conversion? Why does mild ale convert and not amber or brown?

[Hanglow]

If you use american 6 row for the pale then you'll be able to convert those mashes without adding anything
http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/di ... your-beer/

I think that list is wrong, I'm sure maris otter has a fairly low diastic power


Barney, modern brown malt has no diastic power so you'd need to add enzymes if you just wanted to use a lot of it . see that beersmith link, it should explain better than me

[Aleman]

Pale Malt will convert itself and 100% of it's own weight in non diastatic adjuncts (the same applies to lager malts as well) . . . Malt variety (eg Otter, Crisp, Triumph, Golden Promise, Chariot) does not really have a massive impact on this, as the maltster controls it quite well.

So the recipes from DPare 1/3 Diastatic malt and 2/3 non diastatic, it is extremely unlikely that this mash will convert completely (and I'm sceptical about US 6 Row as well).

The easiest way is to thow the recomended amount of Biase / Triase or at a push Amyloglucosidase into the mash

As far as getting some is concerned contact Paul at Murphys Homebrew, and they will add it to the stock list (as they did for me and Polyclar )

In the long and distant past Brown malt would have been smoked which gave it it's colour and would have retained it's diastatic power. Today it is kilned for colour and has no diastatic power. I have tried using the diastatic Amber, but even at 20% of the grist I had difficulty getting it to finish at a sensible gravity, ending up with attenuation of around 50-60%.

I have just bought a sack of brown malt from Fawcetts will that not convert? What is the maximum percentage I can use and get conversion? Why does mild ale convert and not amber or brown?

Barney, See above. You can get conversion of brown malt with up to 50% of the grist, but you will have to lower the mash temp and extend the mash time in order to get a sensible finishing gravity. Personally I wouldn't use mush more than 20%. Mild ale converts because it is kilned only slightly longer and at a slightly higher temperature than pale malt so most of the enzymes are not denatured. Amber and brown have higher kilning temperatures and durations so the amylase enzymess are denatured completely. I would reckon on converting a 50:50 mix of say pale and corn, but only a 75:25 mix of mild an corn (not that I would ever make a beer with that much corn . . .substitute your favouite non diastatic malt/adjunt here)

[barney]

Thanks for excellent advices and references, Bloody great Jims.

Minesapint Please accept my apologies for butting in on your thread.

[minesapint]

No problem barney.
I think I would also be a bit worried, after buying a full sack of brown malt and reading this.
Hopefully one of the Durden Park members will show their hand.
Cheers all.

[barney]

No harm done yet, would have been a good thread = stuck at 1050. LOL.

I e-mailed Fawcetts today and got a very helpful reply from the technical department.

Dear Wayne,
We don't routinely measure Diastatic Power for our malts but typical values for all the Pale Ale Malts are 55' - 65' IOB or Lintner.
However, the Roasted / Crystal malts will not have any residual enzyme activity due to the high temperatures at which they are
produced. So, Brown Malt, Amber Malt, and Pale Amber Malt are all roasted malts, albeit it at the bottom of the colour range, and therefore can only
be used as an adjunct in the grist; not as the main base malt. Typical addition rates would be 5 - 10 %, but if you were trying something
different you can obviously add more, although the flavour contribution will be significant ! Mild Ale Malt is a Pale Ale type but darker in colour,
and the does have plenty of enzyme content so can be used as the base malt in the grist.
I hope that helps ?
Regards,
Brian.

[barney]

It seems obvious really when you think about it, I have been mashing out to stop enzyme activity at 75°C. So anything kilned at a higher temperature is going to struggle. I have also realised what the point of the starch test is during this mornings brew.

I have been going through these routines without realising their importance or application, there is so much to learn about brewing. LOL