Still getting slightly harsh taste in my homebrew

[iandiggs]

Hello All,
Wonder if you could help me.
I am still getting quite a bit of harshness (that classic 'homebrew' taste) in my finished, and matured, ale. This is despite:
-Treating all my water with CRS - the correct amount: i've tested with a salifert alkaline-measuring kit (i live in a very alkalinic water area (Thames water)).
-Using a pinch or 2 of Gypsum in the mash.
-Using hop profiles where there is no boil hops-only late ones and a steep - so harsh bitterness cannot be/or is unlikely to be from hops.

Could the harshness still remain because:
-I am using the right quantity of CRS but not applying it correctly. The Brewing Knowledge Base on this site states this: 'Typically (adding the CRS) would be done in two additions, two thirds of the amount would be added as the liquor was being drawn off (the agitation helps dissipate the carbon dioxide), and then the alkalinity would be measured again and the final amount to be added recalculated.
I don't understand this. What does 'liquor being drawn off' mean? Is this just before the mash water has reached strike temperature and is being poured into the mash tun (cooler box)(can't be, otherwise they would call it 'water', wouldn't they?)? If it means after the mash, then how on earth can you (re)measure the alkalinity with the sweet liquor, given that the salifert kit relies on the colour of the liquid turning from green/blue to pink?
-Harsh tannins being picked up as i sparge at the end of the mash. I am very conscious of not extracting enough sweet liquor from the mash tun after the mash (though I always put exactly the right amount of water to grain ration in the mash tun before the mash) so i tend to push down on the spent grains when sparging to extract as much as possible. Could this be the key to the harshness? Methinks it has to be, as i think i am exhausting all other explanations. I used Pilsener Malt in my last brew and i was shocked at how squidgy and spongey it was (compared to Maris Otter, for example), so pushed down pretty hard on it.
Is it the case that you have to extract a certain amount of liquor for a 23l brew? Or as long as you get a target OG, it doesn't matter?
-Mash/sparge temperature: I've heard that mashing/sparging with too hot a water temperature can also release tannins, but i've never mashed with higher than 70 degrees/sparged with higher than 85 degrees.
Would be most grateful if you could assist me.
Many Thanks
Ian

[UKTony]

so i tend to push down on the spent grains when sparging to extract as much as possible

Personally I'd

- try some bottled water in places of the many times recycled/treated Thames tap water.
- find or order a water analysis and additions recommendation. Consider boiling the HLT water in place of/additionally to Camden/CRS treatment. As I understand it CRS to the HLT, stir and wait whilst heating - other non soluble additions mix into the grain. Start with a crushed camden to clear the chlorine out although I've never worked out how this works chemically.
- avoid disturbing the grain bed and just liquor back if you are down on volume, add more grain to the recipe if down on gravity.
- get some litmus paper (5.0-6.0 ph range) and check about 5 minutes in to the mash (target is around 5.3).
- don't sparge over 80oC and check the accuracy of all thermometers
- carefully bottle a few samples (no priming) and leave them for 2+ months before tasting. You might not be giving the yeast time to clean up.

I tend to find BIAB batches suffer more problems than traditional mashes especially if I wring the last drops out of the bag or faff about sparging with kettle water etc.

[Martin G]

Got to be worth giving the no squeeze mash a go. Is the sparge temp 85C in the tank before it drops, sounds a bit hot may be worth trying a little lower. Personally would rather have less wort than I wanted or use more grain than risk tannin extraction or other issue.

[OldSpeckledBadger]

85C might be a bit too hot for sparging. I heat my sparge water to at about 80C which gives a final temperature of about 76-77C when added to the mash. The other thing is to do a pH test of your mash about 10 minutes in to check that your alkalinity is appropriate for the beer you're making. I use a much higher alkalinity for my milds than I do for my bitters otherwise the resultant mash pH would be too low.

[Matt12398]

I think you're looking at mash pH being the issue.

You can use indicator papers but they're nowhere near accurate enough to be of much use for brewing. Bear in mind that a pH difference between 5.1 and 5.3 is huge. If you have to do it this way buy the precision strips.

Low pH will give a harsh sour taste with suppressed hop flavour. Your poor efficiency points to this as well.

[iandiggs]

Thanks for all your answers.
Think I'm just going to use bottled water next time as it's been a constant issue.....
Any recommendations for bottled water brands...?

[darkonnis]

I'd got for something as cheap and cheerful. They're usually as close to neutral as you're going to get. Have you tried not using any water treatment? If using bottled water, try not using any treatment and just make a "half" batch to test. I've never needed to treat my water nor have I ever bothered to check its pH using tap water or bottled. I just used tesco's own or Asda's own for bottled, hope that helps.

[Eric]

Hello All,
Wonder if you could help me.
I am still getting quite a bit of harshness (that classic 'homebrew' taste) in my finished, and matured, ale. This is despite:
-Treating all my water with CRS - the correct amount: i've tested with a salifert alkaline-measuring kit (i live in a very alkalinic water area (Thames water)).
-Using a pinch or 2 of Gypsum in the mash.
-Using hop profiles where there is no boil hops-only late ones and a steep - so harsh bitterness cannot be/or is unlikely to be from hops.

There is a world of difference between bitter and harsh, you won't confuse the two if you like and recognise beer. Rule this out, for if you over bitter a beer I can promise you will recognise it for what it is.

Could the harshness still remain because:
-I am using the right quantity of CRS but not applying it correctly. The Brewing Knowledge Base on this site states this: 'Typically (adding the CRS) would be done in two additions, two thirds of the amount would be added as the liquor was being drawn off (the agitation helps dissipate the carbon dioxide), and then the alkalinity would be measured again and the final amount to be added recalculated.
I don't understand this. What does 'liquor being drawn off' mean? Is this just before the mash water has reached strike temperature and is being poured into the mash tun (cooler box)(can't be, otherwise they would call it 'water', wouldn't they?)? If it means after the mash, then how on earth can you (re)measure the alkalinity with the sweet liquor, given that the salifert kit relies on the colour of the liquid turning from green/blue to pink?

Measuring alkalinity in the home environment isn't easily done perfectly, and it takes longer for the desired amount of alkalinity to be converted by acids into brewing salts than we might imagine. All that is being suggested here is that you use 2/3rds of the CRS you calculate and check that progress so that if necessary you might recalculate the amount needed. I absolutely advise this method to ensure your liquor alkalinity is as you select.

-Harsh tannins being picked up as i sparge at the end of the mash. I am very conscious of not extracting enough sweet liquor from the mash tun after the mash (though I always put exactly the right amount of water to grain ration in the mash tun before the mash) so i tend to push down on the spent grains when sparging to extract as much as possible. Could this be the key to the harshness? Methinks it has to be, as i think i am exhausting all other explanations. I used Pilsener Malt in my last brew and i was shocked at how squidgy and spongey it was (compared to Maris Otter, for example), so pushed down pretty hard on it.
Is it the case that you have to extract a certain amount of liquor for a 23l brew? Or as long as you get a target OG, it doesn't matter?

Pass if you are using a grain bag, I gave that up a long time since, but for several reasons other than harshness.

-Mash/sparge temperature: I've heard that mashing/sparging with too hot a water temperature can also release tannins, but i've never mashed with higher than 70 degrees/sparged with higher than 85 degrees.
Would be most grateful if you could assist me.
Many Thanks
Ian

85C is too high. 80C should be OK but 78C seems to be advisable.

[orlando]

matt12398's suggestions need to be explored. Mash pH is a vital element for exerting control over the extraction and any subsequent "harshness". Another factor is your sparge liquour, keeping this under 6 will ensure again that you control for tannin extraction. As for sparge temperature extracting tannin I'm not so sure, otherwise decoction mashing would be problematic. If you are going to have any hope of tracking the problem down then changing one thing at a time will pinpoint it. I would be inclined to get a reasonably good pH meter as getting this right is one of those critical path moments in brewing which if it is too far out of the range for your beer style you are unlikely to retrieve it later on.

[Goulders]

I have very hard water and it took me ages to get the water right, but thanks to others on here I now understand it and my last brew was great. You dont think you need to buy expensive ph meters. Many others don't. I was going to use bottled water until I tried Bru'n water. The spreadsheet takes a while to get your head around at first. Otherwise have a go with bottled water to check it isn't your brew method, which I am sure it probably isn't, then have a go with your lovely Thames water!

[JonA]

Treating all my water with CRS - the correct amount: i've tested with a salifert alkaline-measuring kit (i live in a very alkalinic water area (Thames water)).

I also live in a very alkaline water area and I would suggest sending a sample of your water to Murphys. They will provide you with an analysis and recommendations for the quantity of AMS required for liquor alkalinity reduction for different beer types. They will also give mash salts recommendations as either individual chemicals or DWB - tell them which you use when you send the sample.

I get one done every 12 months - £18 well spent IMO

[Belter]

I'd got for something as cheap and cheerful. They're usually as close to neutral as you're going to get. Have you tried not using any water treatment? If using bottled water, try not using any treatment and just make a "half" batch to test. I've never needed to treat my water nor have I ever bothered to check its pH using tap water or bottled. I just used tesco's own or Asda's own for bottled, hope that helps.

I'm surprised by this. Do you always make the same beers? Have you tried a stout?

I alter my water for every brew to match a style. If I don't it tastes awful but I do have very soft water

[orlando]

I'd got for something as cheap and cheerful. They're usually as close to neutral as you're going to get. Have you tried not using any water treatment? If using bottled water, try not using any treatment and just make a "half" batch to test. I've never needed to treat my water nor have I ever bothered to check its pH using tap water or bottled. I just used tesco's own or Asda's own for bottled, hope that helps.

I'm surprised by this. Do you always make the same beers? Have you tried a stout?

I alter my water for every brew to match a style. If I don't it tastes awful but I do have very soft water

There is a lot of confusion surrounding pH and alkalinity. The pH of the "starting" water is irrelevant it's the mineral content you need to know and its alkalinity is the most important of all. Reducing alkalinity to the right level allows you to adjust the mash chemistry so that its pH is in the right range. If I only ever brewed Porters and Stouts I could just about get away without adjusting my water, but of course I don't want to do that.

[fisherman]

I would have a water analysis test done by wwwmurphyandson.co.uk. You may know your alkalinity but mineral additions are another story. it must be a brewers best mooney spent. I have wasted lots of of lbs of good malt in the past.
If you have the water test done ask for individual addtions as well as DLS and put your water profile into Grahams water calculator. Also a good digital thermometer is needed and use a strike rate calculator.
Happy Brewing

[mozza]

Just a thought could it be to do with sterilisation? I have found before that if I don't rinse enough I get a harsh after taste. Again, just a thought!