Better Mash Efficiency

[darkonnis]

I know that mash efficiency isn't the end of the world, I myself have said (and stick to) that adding a bit more grain at the homebrew level pretty much solves the problem.

But with my big rig build coming to a close as far as alterations go and yesterday me doing the T-54 RIS, it got me to thinking:

2.5kg of grain will make 5L at 1.114 SG (72% efficiency), it would also make 15L at 1.038 SG (72% efficiency). The thing here is this, my efficiency dropped doing the high gravity to less than 50% so I didn't get my 1.114 I got about 1.094, so would I not be better off sparging until it's done and simply boiling down to the amount I want?

This is more a case of me being curious and because I do wonder how commercial brewers up the efficiency of their stronger ales than me actually planning a 5 hour boil (though I might just to see what happens)

Is there an alternative I haven't considered?

Would a long (2 - 4hrs) be a bad thing?

Cheers
Cooky

[Befuddler]

With a really long boil and a really dark, high gravity beer you run the risk of burning the wort. If you can manage that risk, go for it.

Below 50% is really low, even for that kind of gravity. Did you check mash pH and conversion?

[Martin G]

Out of interest what grain was involved?

Edit- ignor that, I read the link as the yeast you were using

[Eric]

Perhaps it's foolish of me to enter into this topic as I've NEVER made a really strong beer, but I can't see how one makes such a high gravity beer without boiling off a significant amount of liquid, adding sizable quantities of sugar to the boil, or alternatively plan for a low mash efficiency.
My standard mash is probably quite stiff by most standards. Even so, my initial runnings are usually just over 1080 and once I start to sparge, that drops, so even if I were to not even sparge and then evaporate a typical 20% during the boil I would struggle to produce a beer with an OG of 1100.

[darkonnis]

Could easily manage it befuddler, with the small batches atleast I use a pan not an element so the chances of it burning aren't high.

No I didn't check pH or conversion, admittedly though I should but I haven't got the kit for it. The mash was at 68 for 45minutes even so, you still get a lot of starches out regardless of if they convert or not.

Thats pretty much it Eric you've hit it in 1 (or 3) so basically I'm trying to drag the efficiency up and start there. I'm not a huge fan of adding dextrose because all it adds is ABV which I want but only because it comes with the flavours and textures of the malt that gets it there. Which leaves me with poor efficiency (which I have) or extended boil times... Which is going to be my next port of call. Realistically I'm thinking I'd have to produce nearly 3 times as much as I would like and then reduce that down. For bigger batches that would be a problem, for my little stove top pan... No issues what so ever, which is why I wondered if it'd work

I had debated about getting a refractometer and sparging until gravity drops to 1010, does anyone else do this?

[hopsinjoor]

I put your grain bill into my spreadsheet and it tells me that for a 5 litre brew with those grains, at 70% efficiency (what I usually aim for, and mostly get) you would have an original gravity of 1.096, as you got 1.094, you are still getting pretty decent efficiency IMHO. Especially as it gets more difficult to get the same efficiency at the higher gravity end of the spectrum.

2.5kg of Marris Otter, or some other base malt, would indeed yield and OG of about 1.111 or thereabouts at 72% efficiency, but you aren't just mashing with MO, you've got specialty malts which have a lower grain extraction efficiency, thus you would expect a lower OG.

Unless I've totally misread what you've posted about, and if that's the case, I apologise, and please correct me.

[edit]

I've just noticed the honey addition, that should have bumped up the gravity, so you did get a much lower gravity with that taken in mind.

I'm intrigued as to why you mashed for so little time, and at quite a high temperature? I was told at a homebrew meeting by JK of Marble, that for beers over 1.070 that they would mash at about 62-64 degrees for over 2 hours, that way you get more fermentables, rather than complex sugars that can't be eaten by the yeast.

Basically, I think I'm very confused now.

[darkonnis]

Indeed, the honey should have bumped it up and it did, just not to where I wanted it to be. Basically I went with a low mash time and high temperature because I want this to have body by the droves. The fermentables is an issue, and perhaps I can't have it both ways.

It comes from trying some high powered stouts and porters a few weeks ago which where incredibly thick, incredibly strong (10%+) and rather sweet which offset some of what would usually have been a major kick to the teeth. I made 2, what I will call belgian wheat IPA's prior to this coming in at around 8.5% each, the strong flavours high IBUs and high finishing gravity meant that everyone I gave it to thought it was 5%ish, strong, bit hoppy, but not even close to the actual ABV, that is really what I'm wanting to achieve. I want to bury high ABV in flavours so its not just drinkable but incredibly tasty and makes you want to crack another bottle. Most high ABV beers start tasting a bit meh or like the commercial efforts which are basically "I've no flavour, or not one you'll like but I do have ABV!" I want both.

All my calculations are done through beersmith 2, with the speciality malts taken in to account. For this brew I'm not too worried as what is done is done, but for future brews I'd like to fully understand and appreciate my options before just going through trial and error and potentially ruining (what would be) perfectly good beer.

[bigrichlock]

Hello,

are you using a false bottom in the mash tun and are you continuous sparging?

from my experience since moving to my new kit as soon as you go above 7-8% you need to be using a false bottom and ideally continuous sparging to try and get the most out of the grain. it sounds like you have reached the point that with your current process regardless of how much grain you use you wont hit the OG you want? alter process?

I use to run at about 70% when using a coolbox and batch sparging this dropped of massively when i brewed high gravity beers, now i have a false bottom and continuous sparging im up at 85-90% efficiency on 7% beers, i would guess i will still be above 70% on 10% beers, will test this theory next month

Rich

[darkonnis]

I use a false bottom in my big rig and I get 72 - 79% depending on how patient i am with the batch. 85 - 90%? Hmmm I might have to revise how I do things as that level of efficiency isn't a huge stretch and would be rather nice...

This low efficiency (<50%) is with my little grain bag and pan set up and without considerable expense I'd like to really up the efficiency... I don't brwe anything much over 6.5% on the bigrig as i haven't enough kegs to write 2 off for the forseeable future! Please let me know hwo you get on with the 10% though!

[barney]

Boiling for hour after hour would probably cost more than using additional grain. When I go for a high gravity brew I invariably end up doing a parti gyle. The first runnings generally produce over 1100 and with a normal boil gravity shoots up and then you can add the sugars. Mashing at 62/63 would be optimal and adding enzyme to account for the adjuncts would reduce mash time. To maintain the full flavour consider using a yeast which would give a malty body, Scottish yeasts or one of the German dunkel yeasts would give tons of malt flavours.

I think if you followed a few simple steps efficiency would rise.
Mash at low at 62
Add enzyme or mash for extended period, possibly even "overnight"
Mash out at 75
Sparge with grain bed submerged with sparge water at PH 6 or slightly less.

You cannot really do any more. If that fails to get you where you want to be then a parti gyle will hit the numbers every time at whatever efficiency you currently generate.

[darkonnis]

Thanks barney lots to think about.

I figured boiling would be more expensive (hence the extra grain being my first port of call) that said, I have my heart set on atleast trying the long period just to see what happens and for the experience of having done it.

With regards to sparging with 6ph water, how do you alter the pH when you do it? I figure its a case of adding a chemical but what exactly?

[barney]

I use Food grade Phosphoric Acid to adjust the water PH. It came in at a fiver for 100ml and I have had it over a year, adding between 0.5ml and 1 ml at a time. You need to aware of the H&S data sheet information when handling it, rubber gloves safety glasses etc.

In practise it has become quick and simple to use.

[bigrichlock]

I use Lactic acid, Murphys and sons sell it and is pretty cheap and lasts for ages.

Rich

[hopsinjoor]

I usually use gypsum, calcium chloride, and for certain beers (stouts and porters) Sodium bicarbonate, as my water treatment to get the correct ph range.

It's good to see that me and Barney agree on the lower mash temperature, that will help you get far more fermentable sugars out of the grain, the higher mash temp with give you longer chain, unfermentable sugars that (as you rightly said) give you sweetness and body, but no alcohol. Surely, to some extent, that's also what the specialty grains will be doing as well?

I'm going to brew an imperial stout soon (maybe even this week), I'll detail everything I do, and see how it works out.

[wilsoa11111]

agree with partigyle approach always seems to give that little extra percentage and is a great time saver, fav is a big malty brown-amber ale then a stout by adding dark grains before the sparging for the 2nd beer