finings secondary ferment

[hophit]

Hi all.
New to the forum but have now done about 20 Ag brews so not a complete beginner but I do have one specific query. So, I have been brewing some AIPAs and when I chill the bottles down they go hazy. Reading up says I should be using some finings. My understanding of secondary fermentation is that the residual yeast in the beer process the bottling sugar. Surely if I add finings prior to bottling it will make all the yeast sink and they won't be floating round in the beer to process the bottling sugar!? Also, how do I add the gelatine to the primary and mix it in without dusturbing the trub? (I don't rack to secondary or use a bottling bucket as paranoud about getting O2 in the beer).
Any advice appreciated.

[DerbyshireNick]

Its generally not recommended to add finnings for bottle conditioned beers because it tends to make the yeast cake unstable. If I assume correctly that you are using US05 too that will not help as in my experience its not very floculent and is roused in the bottle very very easily, so having that mixed with finnings in the bottom of the bottle is just a recipe of disaster.

The haze in your case is either yeast or could be a chill haze from residual proteins. If it tastes ok... Anything you do will most likely cause more damage than good.

[darkonnis]

Finnings work just fine (so I've found) in the bottle, I used to use KwikClear and that was pretty good for clearing it and getting it ready to bottle. As with any bottle with a bit of cake in the bottom, sit it up right and treat it gently and there isnt a real problem. If you don't want a cake then play about with finning in the FV and leaving for a few days before bottling, you'll find carbonation takes longer (IME). You can also crashcool which is what I do now and this greatly reduces the amount of trub I end up with in the keg/bottle (typically <2mm per corny)

[koomber]

darkonnis, what temp are you going to for cold crashing? I've been taking mine down to 1°C for 24-48 hours and have had good results.

If I remember correctly Highly hopped beers are more prone to being hazy.

[hophit]

Finnings work just fine (so I've found) in the bottle, I used to use KwikClear and that was pretty good for clearing it and getting it ready to bottle. As with any bottle with a bit of cake in the bottom, sit it up right and treat it gently and there isnt a real problem. If you don't want a cake then play about with finning in the FV and leaving for a few days before bottling, you'll find carbonation takes longer (IME). You can also crashcool which is what I do now and this greatly reduces the amount of trub I end up with in the keg/bottle (typically <2mm per corny)

This is really helpful - as are other responses. So I reckon I will do this:

1)Add dry hops to primary as fermentation slows and krausen starts to break up. Leave for 3 days
2) Add Kwikclear to primary and leave for a couple more days
3) Bottle/minikeg an accept secondary fermentation might take a little longer.

If that fails, then I will use frosted glasses (pewter mugs not my thing!).

Thanks all.

[orlando]

If it is chill haze then there are other things to think about too. Getting your mash pH into the right range helps proteins to coagulate in the boil (hot break) the more vigorous the boil the better as again this helps to precipitate them out of solution. After that rapid chilling (cold break) is then your next target but no need to worry too much about that going over into the fermentor. Chilling the beer to sub 5c before fining is another way of helping yeast to drop out, if it is yeast that is the problem, which I doubt, it is preferable to rack off before fining as you are right to worry about stirring up the trub and although you are right to be concerned about oxygenation, unless you aren't going to drink your beer within 6 months or so you shouldn't have too much of a problem.

As for the yeast not completing conditioning, next time you are shopping for commercial beers that are bottle conditioned take a look at the bottom of the bottle, the merest paint layer of yeast is likely to be on show, you would be staggered to know how many yeast cells there are in "clear" beer.

Of course if you have a normal persons patience and not that of a home brewer, everything will clear eventually. However if chill haze is the problem then proteins will come out of solution once it gets cold enough. Chill haze is however a technical issue not a taste issue, so if it tastes good and that's enough, enjoy!

[hophit]

Thanks Orlando.

I am using good ol' Thames tap water, which I have not been treating for pH at all. Anyone have adivce on treating London water for pale ales?

I'm using half a protofloc tablet in last 15 mins of boil. Interesting what you say about vigarous boil - my plastic boiler has two elements and I've been turning one of them off once it is up to boiling so it doesn't boil quite so vigarously (was losing a lot of wort volume and getting very wet ceilings but may have to accept that). In terms of rapid cooling after the boil I am using a self made immersion chiller and getting it down to 20(ish) degrees C in about 45 mins to an hour. (struggling with the tap water being so warm in the summer months). I have been chilling down in the boiler then running off the wort via a cored out flexible hose at the bottom of the boiler, so basically the hops/hose kind of filter most of the precipitates, but some do seem to make it nto the fermenter.

What you say about crash cooling to 5C before cooling - do you mean you basically put the primary (in my case) or racked beer in bottling bucket (I may try this) in the fridge for a while, then add the finings, then bottle? After whcih presumably the yeast wake back up and process the bottling sugar?

I am always amazed at how little sediment is in commercial bottle conditioned beers compared to my own...

[orlando]

I am using good ol' Thames tap water, which I have not been treating for pH at all. Anyone have adivce on treating London water for pale ales?

Make Porters, your water is made for it, but get some chloride in at 3:1 sulphate.

I'm using half a protofloc tablet in last 15 mins of boil. Interesting what you say about vigarous boil - my plastic boiler has two elements and I've been turning one of them off once it is up to boiling so it doesn't boil quite so vigarously (was losing a lot of wort volume and getting very wet ceilings but may have to accept that). In terms of rapid cooling after the boil I am using a self made immersion chiller and getting it down to 20(ish) degrees C in about 45 mins to an hour. (struggling with the tap water being so warm in the summer months). I have been chilling down in the boiler then running off the wort via a cored out flexible hose at the bottom of the boiler, so basically the hops/hose kind of filter most of the precipitates, but some do seem to make it nto the fermenter.

Most guys do that, but I adjust for the losses with my initial volumes and reap the "benefit" of clearer beer etc. I chill in the boiler too (running through a plate chiller) can I suggest you leave it once chilled to temp to allow the protafloc plenty of time to do its job, you might find the trub acts as a better filter.

What you say about crash cooling to 5C before cooling - do you mean you basically put the primary (in my case) or racked beer in bottling bucket (I may try this) in the fridge for a while, then add the finings, then bottle? After whcih presumably the yeast wake back up and process the bottling sugar?

I mean chill down everything that's in the fermentor then rack off onto your finings into a secondary vessel for conditioning, pressure barrels are good for this as they provide a good seal, just remember to "bleed" off any CO2 from time to time. Bulk aging like this can speed up the process and helps reduce any acetaldehyde. Leave the finings to do there job then rack off again to your bottling bucket with the sugar solution already in it, gently stir then bottle as usual. The number of rackings might worry you but with good sanitation and care over splashing and you will see a marked improvement in clarity and no detriment to the beer. The yeast will wake back up as they do after keeping yeast in the fridge until its ready for pitching so no different really.

I am always amazed at how little sediment is in commercial bottle conditioned beers compared to my own...

See above. But of course on a far more sophisticated scale.