back liquoring?

[bigdave]

My boiler will only allow a brew length of 20-21l but my poly kegs hold 30l and it seems a shame to put all that effort into half filling a keg so I'm looking at ways of extending my brew length without the expense of building a new boiler.

One possible solution I've dreamed up is to brew stronger then back liquor but I don't know what affect this will have on the final beer or when is best to back liquor?

Does anyone do this regularly? is it a reliable way of brewing?

[Mr. Dripping]

It's a common commercial practice to liquor back to hit gravity targets.....no detriment to beer quality that I've read.
If you think about it, this is exactly what anyone does when making beer from kits.
You will need to adjust your hop rates to factor in the bigger volume.

[FUBAR]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Carling brew to 9 % ABV ( and its actually a tasty beer at that stage ) then liquor back

[PhilB]

Hi Dave

+1 Mr. Dripping ... and another way to think about it ...

Maxi-BIAB brewers do this all the time, it's their way (it was mine too when I used to brew that way ) of getting a bigger volume into their fermenter than their boiler will hold, exactly what you are trying to do.

Some things that maxi-BIABers have to think about that you should try to work out what you will do about;

• Scale your Recipe for Your Volume Into Fermenter - as Mr. Dripping mentions you will need to scale both your grain and hop bills for the volume you are wanting to ferment
• Scale your Recipe for the (Concentrated) Boil Gravity - boiling in a higher gravity wort will reduce your hop utilisation so you need to scale your hop additions (even) further for that
• Watch out For Drops in Efficiency - Making a higher gravity wort (to then liquor back) may lead to a reduction in efficiency ... and maxi-BIABers sometimes get into a vicious cycle where reducing efficiency assumptions, adds more grain to the grist, which keeps more sugars soaked in the grains, which reduces the efficicency even further ... if you can continue the sparge during the boil (subject to stopping sparging when you hit low gravities in the run off) and top up your boiler as liquor evaporates off, then you may counteract those effects.

If you were maxi-BIABing I'd recommend the various calculators available over at BIABrewers.info which help you work out how to deal with those effects ... but you may just have to get creative with how you use whichever recipe formulation software you prefer to use. Good Luck

Cheers, PhilB

[bigdave]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Carling brew to 9 % ABV ( and its actually a tasty beer at that stage ) then liquor back

That's a complete lie! Carling couldn't make a decent beer with all the grain and hops in the world!! lol


The last few ales I've brewed have been iro 7-8% so a liquor back from 8% to 5.5% should leave me with a reasonable ale I reckon?

[Rick_UK]

Yes perfectly doable but means you will have to use more grain as you will have to stop sparging sooner.

You could do 2 boils of 45 mins and not waste any grain.

Swings and roundabouts I suppose.

Rick

[bigdave]

If I use the same grain bill as though I was brewing an 8% ale I will collect enough wort to ferment an 8% ale... After that I just add an extra 10l of water to the fermenter so why should I need more grain?

[Rick_UK]

If I use the same grain bill as though I was brewing an 8% ale I will collect enough wort to ferment an 8% ale... After that I just add an extra 10l of water to the fermenter so why should I need more grain?

If you were brewing say a 5% ale, 23l brew length you'd likely need about 5kg of grain and 35l of water for mash and sparge which would give you a pre boil volume of around 28l after sparging. If you only want say 20l after sparging you will have to stop sparging sooner thus leaving some of the sugars behind. You will have to use more grain to compensate for this.

So yes you will need a similar amount of grain as an 8% ale but you will only end up with say a 5% one as you'll be watering it down.

Hope this makes sense!

[Rubbery]

He means your efficiency will be poor

[PhilB]

Hi Rubbery ...

He means your efficiency will be poor

... I know this is a pedantic point ... but, I think his efficiency may be poor, is more accurate ... although that probably gets more likely the bigger the beer Dave wants to make

Hi Dave
An alternative way to think about it ... in order to make 30 litres of wort with an OG of 1.080 and 60 IBU (just as an example that might get you something like your 8% beer ) ... you'd have to brew up 20 litres of wort with an OG of 1.120 and 90 IBU and add (liquor back with) 10 litres of water ... because (20*120 + 10*0)/30 = 80 and the IBUs are diluted similarly ... so, do you think you can make 20 litres of 1.120 wort, with your kit, without a drop in efficiency

Cheers, PhilB

[bigdave]

... so, do you think you can make 20 litres of 1.120 wort, with your kit, without a drop in efficiency

Cheers, PhilB

I dont think I'd attempt to. lol. more likely that I'd brew 1.080 then dilute to 1.050

[PhilB]

Hi Dave

Sorry, my mistake ... I think I saw the 8% Malice Porter in your sig and thought that was the kind of beer you always brewed

In which case, the efficiency shouldn't be a problem ... unless you want to make another 30 lts of Malice Porter sometime

Cheers, PhilB

[DaveGillespie]

My tuppence worth - I Maxi-BIAB (helped out greatly by PhilB in the beginning - cheers again!). 10th batch currently sitting in the fermenter and I always liquor back at least 5 litres of water (kettle is 21L Bergland stockpot) sometimes 6 or 7 depending on efficiency on the day. Have brewed everywhere from 1.037 to 1.052 with only grain and a couple of Dubbels up at around 1.067 when using extra sugars and I have seen no problems liquoring back yet. I generally end up sparging a total of around 9L and would get about 7 or 8 litres of that back into the kettle between the start of the boil and additions during the boil.

The general rule I have been advised of is not to liquor back by more than 50% ie. if you have 20L of wort, dilute to no further than 30L. I started out using the calculators as PhilB mentioned but ended up just using BeerEngine and estimating what my usual efficiency is (75.5%).

[Cazamodo]

Again to agree with everyone, shouldn't be a problem. I do it all the time at work if I hit over my OG.

However I try to not add more than 20% water to the total amount. Again though, just my preference.

[PhilB]

Hi Dave (DaveGillespie)

I Maxi-BIAB (helped out greatly by PhilB in the beginning - cheers again!). 10th batch currently

... good to know you're still at it, you don't seem to have been around for a while now ... and thanks for the thanks ... I've been hoping you would show up sometime (somewhere) because I'd like to know how your Hopping Hare clone turned out in the end? ... sorry to divert your thread Dave (bigdave) but if Dave's found a successful recipe for that beer I NEED to know

Cheers, PhilB