torrifying barley

[SHIELDS EXILE]

Has anyone tried torrifying pale malted grain in a popcorn machine? The stuff is unavailable in Australia, and they say flaked barley gives adifferent taste to ale.Lots of Wheeler recipes call for it, also some of Ron Pattinsons.

[PhilB]

Hi

I've no idea about home flaking/torrifying ... but I think you mean that stuff (link) ... I couldn't believe you couldn't get it so I did a quick search and found that very quickly, looks pretty available from over here

Cheers, PhilB

[seymour]

There's definitely a difference between torrified and flaked/rolled.

I've never seen Torrified Barley for sale either, so yes, if I needed it for a recipe I would put some raw unmalted barley into an air popper. If your barley has already been malted, then it won't serve the same purpose at all.

EDIT: FOR BETTER RESULTS, SEE ERIC'S INSTRUCTIONS BELOW.

[PhilB]

Hi Seymour

There's definitely a difference between torrified and flaked/rolled.

... I understand how there's a difference in the way they're made ... one's heated till it pops, the other is heated till it pops and rolled into a flake shape while it's still hot ... but are you suggesting that you can taste that change in shape, in the finished beer?

Cheers, PhilB

[seymour]

I can't speak from experience between flaked barley versus torrified barley, because I've never used the latter.

In the grand scheme of things, PhilB, I agree flaked barley and torrified barley will serve similar purposes. But it sounds like SHIELDS EXILE wants to follow the letter of the law, and has the ability to make his own, so I say go for it.

Yeah, I've definitely observed different brewing properties when using torrified wheat versus flaked wheat versus other types of unmalted cracked wheat. Mainly in terms of convertability and body. My personal favourite is bulgur/burghul wheat, a type of parboiled unmalted wheat used mainly in Middle Eastern cooking, which is fairly convertible but still lends some body, mouthfeel, and head retention, plus a nice nutty flavour. Buckwheat is fun too, but it's actually not truly wheat at all (I used some in another Flyer recipe, speaking of which, but digress.)

Same goes for various forms of unmalted oats. I don't know how much taste difference there is, in terms of pure flavour alone, but they each contribute slightly different brewing properties. It's a judgment call, and of course some clone brewers are a lot more fastidious than others...

[Eric]

For unmalted barley.
I can't say this is how it should be done, but the following is what was done to that in the picture from barley sold for feeding pidgeons at £5 for 20kg.


A quantity of barley was weighed and washed in cold water until the water ran clear.
The grain were soaked in cold water until they increased in weight by 45%.
They were then soaked in fresh water in a pan on the hob, heated and held at 50C for 15 minutes.
Heat was then applied raising the temperature to 65C and kept there for 45 minutes before again being heated to boiling point and gently simmered for a few minutes.
At a maximum amount of 100g per time, the processed barley was placed in an uncovered microwave proof bowl and placed in a domestic microwave at full power until popping started to subside and before any burning took place.

Attempts at popping without cooking as can be done with maize didn't produce a suitable product.

Torrified barley can be used to in place of flaked barley but with a different result.

[PhilB]

Hi Seymour

Thanks for the response ... personally, I'd suggest that the behavioural/brewing property/flavour differences that you've described are (at least) as likely to be based on the (raw) grains that those adjuncts have been made from as the cracking/torrifying/flaking processes that they've been subjected to ... but without considerably more scientific testing I doubt we'd be able to resolve that debate

Hopefully, SHIELDS EXILE now has sufficient information with which to make his decision ... although, we should maybe add the "pearl barley", either cooked up and added to the mash or cereal mashed, option as (yet) another alternative

Cheers, PhilB

[seymour]

...personally, I'd suggest that the behavioural/brewing property/flavour differences that you've described are (at least) as likely to be based on the (raw) grains that those adjuncts have been made from as the cracking/torrifying/flaking processes that they've been subjected to...

With all due respect, I really don't think so. Look at Eric's torrification process. That's authentic. It's elaborate but still a little cheaper than malting for producers. Bulghur wheat goes through a similar process. Flaked grains are considered "pre-gelatinized" merely because of the heat generated by the roller mills, so those don't go through nearly as much carefully managed "cooking", enzyme conversion, low-grade caramelization and malliard reactions, and overall flavour enhancement. We're talking about a very real difference here. Akin to the difference between Pilsener Malt vs. Munich Malt, or Pale vs. Aromatic, I'd wager. Even so, any version of unmalted grain is typically a small percentage of the overall grainbill and you're right there may not be a huge difference in the final beer one way or the other.

[Eric]

Even so, any version of unmalted grain is typically a small percentage of the overall grainbill and you're right there may not be a huge difference in the final beer one way or the other.

Typically yes; necessarily not. The grist seen in the foreground is unmalted, home made and 25% of the grainbill of a brew currently fermenting.
I'm not going to predict how it will taste, but if it's horrible I promise to post the result here when it's known.

[PhilB]

Even so, any version of unmalted grain is typically a small percentage of the overall grainbill and you're right there may not be a huge difference in the final beer one way or the other.

... unless you're making a beer (like Eric) with a large percentage of unmalted grain ... and even when brewers try to make direct comparisons, between different "versions" of unmalted grains, they fail to keep all of the other variables constant anyway ... there are posts over on a thread on this forum where one brewer can tell no difference between a Belgian Wit made with (a big proportion of) Torrified Wheat, compared to when he's made it with Flaked Wheat (there (link)) and another post in the same thread where another brewer thinks there's a marked difference (there (link)) ... "go figure", as you 'murricanes would say

Cheers, PhilB

[SHIELDS EXILE]

I cant buy any in Adelaide ,Beer Belly is the best all grain supplier here I made 200 gms. with wifes popcorn machine and used it in a Whitbread Tankard recipe from Ron Pattinson, and will taste next week .No one sells it in South Australia.

[SHIELDS EXILE]

Why does Eric leave the microwave dish uncovered, does he sweep the torrified barley out from the oven bottom?

[Eric]

Why does Eric leave the microwave dish uncovered, does he sweep the torrified barley out from the oven bottom?

To allow the steam to escape, better that and the odd grain jumping out of the bowl than the grain be steam cooked. They don't pop as corn does. Try it with 50g of barley that has been washed and left to soak for a few days.

Put the grains in a microwavable relatively lightweight high sided bowl and give them a buzz at full power for 1 minute. Stir the contents with the prongs of a cold dinner fork to even the heat and separate any clumps when condensation on the fork will indicate the remaining moisture level. Repeat as necessary noting the reducing level of condensation until 2 or 3 pop when the oven should again be stopped, a quick stir and back on. After about 10 seconds the popping should restart and increase in frequency and as the frequency declines, stop the process before they start to burn. Adjust you process to suit your oven/bowl etc and findings.

Partially and fully cooked/rested grains will make different finished products.

[SHIELDS EXILE]

PhilB wrote on Nopv6 that Torrified Barley is availble in Australia. The site you mentioned about 3500km from my house, and they only sell flaked barley.Ifollowed Ron Pattinsons advise and used Torrified wheat, as he said it is only forhead retension.