Beers Gods , don't ya just love em

[andyCo]

Following on from this thread of mine viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69560 it would appear that the gods are against me.

Managed to get a brewday in on New year's day , pretty straight forward grain bill , cascade, centinal early doors and same again but with a bit galaxy late on, all went well, thought I'd no chill in the cube.
Put the 80c+ wort in the cube overnight , pitched the yeast next day....nice brewday
I always taste my samples after hydrometer readings from pre boil to end of fermentation...
Early samples fine , day 3 ...plastic, medicinal.. not that's 2 out 2 drained.

I've no chilled before, nothing was wrong with cleanliness(oxy) and sanitation(starsan),water treated as per, the only thing that was slightly off was when I poured chilled wort into fv.
I laid the fv lid sanitized side up on the side whilst in poured the wort in , I did want to give it a quick spray before it went back on but couldn't put my hands on the starsan spray and was more concerned about leaving the exposed wort uncovered ......this is where I think I picked it up.

I've nearly 50 AG brews under my belt so not a complete novice but nowhere as good as I'd like.
I had a run of 4 brews this time last year that picked up infections and I put it down to a moldy shed roof , roof changed and new Fv's since then all been good.

It does make me wonder when tipping a brew down the drain "whats its all about " and when the Mrs give's it "is it worth it"

You spend the best part of 5 hours making a brew, wait a few weeks for it finish and then wait another few weeks for carbonation and conditioning and 9 times out of 10 you produce some really good beer.

So is "it worth it " ...9 times out 10 it is


Hope the gods we be kind next time


Andy

[Dennis King]

It does hurt when we lose one Andy.

[Jocky]

Trying to find your issue:

How soon did you transfer the wort after boiling? Should be near boiling.
How did you clean and sanitise the cube? It needs to be spotless, and ideally you need a mult step process to ensure nothing is alive in there.

[andyCo]

Trying to find your issue:

How soon did you transfer the wort after boiling? Should be near boiling.
How did you clean and sanitise the cube? It needs to be spotless, and ideally you need a mult step process to ensure nothing is alive in there.

Hi Jocky , thanks for the reply

Wort was transfered within 30 mins of flame out , lid was kept on whilst left (thermopot boiler)so just under boiling.
Cube was cleaned with hot water and oxi then starsan and left for next use, re starsaned and drained 1 hour before transferring.
My regime is normal pretty good, everything is cleaned with oxi and stansan left til next time, fv's get re starsaned before use .

Hands are cleaned with hand sanitizer and anything that comes into contact with the pre boiled wort get a dose of starsan.

Andy

[Rick_UK]

Never used a cube, but for years I just hot filled the sterilised FV left it outside overnight and pitched the next day and never had an issue.

Medicinal tastes are usually down to excess phenols produced by the yeast - especially if it gets too warm. So it may not be a sanitation issue. What yeast did you use and at what fermentation temp?

There are no gods just good and bad planning...

[Jocky]

Wort was transfered within 30 mins of flame out , lid was kept on whilst left (thermopot boiler)so just under boiling.

Not used cubes, so this is purely an observation, but I'd want to get the wort in their as soon after the boil as possible, although given your experience I think Rick is right that this is quite probably not a sanitation issue.

As Rick says, medicinal tastes are down to chlorophenols. These can come from reactions with chlorine (in your water, or left over chlorine bleach cleaners), can be produced excessively by wild yeasts, but they also get produced by brewing yeast during fermentation, but at lower levels that usually get cleaned up or drop out (I think they usually bind with proteins at the end of fermentation and drop out... but don't quote me).

I've seen this flavour manifest in beer in a commercial microbrewery, where in their first winter after starting up there was a cold snap where the temperature dropped and stalled the fermentation (they had no heater). While it just about fermented out, it was left with a medicinal TCP like taste/aroma. They bought a heater straight after that

So what I'm wondering is whether you were too hasty in tipping your brew?

[andyCo]

Never used a cube, but for years I just hot filled the sterilised FV left it outside overnight and pitched the next day and never had an issue.

Medicinal tastes are usually down to excess phenols produced by the yeast - especially if it gets too warm. So it may not be a sanitation issue. What yeast did you use and at what fermentation temp?

There are no gods just good and bad planning...

I also have tipped boiling wort into the Fv and left to cool without problems , I normally chill with my immersion chiller, but thought i'd cube this one.

I have a temperature controlled fridge and brewing cupboard, with both heating and cooling so I don't think getting to warm was my problem, if anything there was a 24 hour lag between pitching and start of fermentation , but again I had this in the past and tho not ideal has never resulted in an infection before.
Temp had fallen to around 14c over night just before I pitched and again I've pitched lower before without problems.
Yeast was good ol wilko gervin( notty) was well in date , didn't re hydrate or make a starter as I don't normally with dried yeast, Fv was set to 19c.

Jocky , I thought about letting it do it's thing and ferment out but the taste was getting worse and I've been down the fingers crossed road before and have yet had a brew turn it around.
I even got a nearly 2 year old over done it oak chipped ale ,waiting to mature setting in the shed that I still haven't given up on yet...so I'm not normally a tipper.

Its the Gods I tell ya


Thanks for the replies

Andy

Thanks for the reply


Andy

[Rick_UK]

I've seen this flavour manifest in beer in a commercial microbrewery, where in their first winter after starting up there was a cold snap where the temperature dropped and stalled the fermentation (they had no heater). While it just about fermented out, it was left with a medicinal TCP like taste/aroma. They bought a heater straight after that

I've only ever oticed this at warmer fermentation temps - strange they had it when it got too cool!

My recent Chimay clone had a strong phenolic note to it but I actually quite like it - bit like Laphroig whiskey! It is a desired flavour in lower levels for a lot of Belgian beers. All down to taste preferences I suppose

[Rick_UK]

Its the Gods I tell ya

Or your lass sabotaging it to prove a point...

[Jocky]

Fair enought Andy - I just picked up that you sampled during fermentation, and you can get some weird tastes while yeast is still going.

[Sadfield]

My second AG brew, prior to sorting out some form of temperature control, had a similar issue. After fermenting with Safale S-04, it had something in the aroma that I would describe as very much like the fumes from car bodywork filler, which completely disappeared after 3-4 weeks bottle conditioning.

[andyCo]

Its the Gods I tell ya

Or your lass sabotaging it to prove a point...

It's not her style ..she has other ways of getting her on way...lol

RicK and Jocky big thanks for your inputs and I enjoyed brainstorming through possible causes , but I reckon it's just a lax in concentration on my behalf some where along the process, could of been the cube, FV, my hands, thermometer probe, yeast packet not 100% clean/sanitized and boom.....drain un blocker
The point of the thread was more at sometimes as amateurs the things we are up against and the things we must get away with but we do our best and produce some bloody good beer along the way ....well 9 times out of 10 I do ....
Sadfield tbh I didn't want to waste my time kegging or bottling it only to tip at a later day , it may of improved with time but I doubt it , its all a learning process ....thanks for the reply
As for beer Gods as Rick says perhaps there are none but I for one am a believer as who else could of come up with Beer

Andy

[Capped]

It never fails to amaze me, the lengths you guys go to with sanitation, considering that mine is so,er,lax. In 30-odd years in the game I can't remember the last time (if there was ever a first time!) that I lost a brew to infection. Bit of massively diluted thin bleach,thorough rinse and off I go. This house must have been hermetically sealed and equipped with plutonium rays over the windows and doors when it was built or summat. Not rubbing it in - just saying. I do sympathise!

[andyCo]

It never fails to amaze me, the lengths you guys go to with sanitation, considering that mine is so,er,lax. In 30-odd years in the game I can't remember the last time (if there was ever a first time!) that I lost a brew to infection. Bit of massively diluted thin bleach,thorough rinse and off I go. This house must have been hermetically sealed and equipped with plutonium rays over the windows and doors when it was built or summat. Not rubbing it in - just saying. I do sympathise!

Fair play to you Capped , I reckon I must take the odd liberty and get away with it just some times I observably don't , I try to find reason as there must of been some kind of lapse some where along the chain.The only thing I can think of was the FV lid.
Oxi'd and starsan normally does it for me but I brew in a shed , I serve my beer on a 3 tap beer pump from the shed as well and I know I've spilt beer and wort in there, I bleach all surfaces and floor with has rubber mating but surly I must miss some that creep under the fridges and other brewing shizen I got in there.

I wouldn't say that it's dirty in the shed but It's not as clean as my kitchen or the house ...its a shed and the odd fruit fly can be seen at times ....ahh so perhaps it's not the Gods but fruit flys messing with my noodle

Andy

[Capped]

I reckon the black cat which went for a swim in my FV full of stout (and which still turned out great) must have ensured good luck with all subsequent brews!