My brew has lost a lot of its sweetness

[iandiggs]

Hello All.
I have attempted to brew a Hopping hare-esque ale.
Now, 3 days into the fermentation, the wort has lost a lot of its sweetness-too much as far as i'm concerned.
Here is my brew recipe - it would be great if you could offer any answers / solutions:

6kg Maris Otter
1kg British caramalt
250g Torrified Wheat

25g Citra 10 mins
25g Cascade 10 mins

25g Citra 5 mins
25g Cascade 5 mins

25g Citra 0 mins
25g Cascade 0 mins

75g Citra 1 hour steep @ 60 degrees C
25g Cascade " " " " "

Yeast is Wilko's Gervin ale yeast (supposedly Danstar Nottingham,incognito)

I treated the water with phosphoric acid to get PH down to 5.2 (Thames water is a nightmare for pale ales).
I also chilled the wort pretty quickly with a chiller before adding yeast.
I have also tried to keep the fermentation temperature within the range recommended by danstar for danstar nottingham yeast - between 14-21 degrees. IBU was estimated at 28.79 as all hops are late.
I wish some of the sweetness would come back as i was going to hand out this beer to local clubs/pubs, ultimately somewhere down the line, to try to to secure funding for a microbrewery.
Fermentation is not finished, so i suppose the wort will become even more bitter as the remains of the sugar are stripped by the hungry yeast. I thought yeasts like nottingham, S-04 and mauribrew etc (as opposed to S-05) left some complexity/sweetness and malty body in the wort after fermentation?
Is there any hope for the brew?
Don't suppose any early sweetness will reappear later?
Your help and advice will be much appreciated.

Regards,
Ian

[Hanglow]

3 days into fermentation?



Seriously, let it finish, carb it then taste and come back and post in this thread in three weeks.

At the moment it will have loads of yeast and other particles in suspension, these can be fairly bitter. Plus bitterness reduces with a bit of age.


I don't think you are ready to sell beer to the general public if you are worried about this, no offense.

[keith1664]

A few pointers

1. Your recipe means nothing without a brewlength
2. Is your recipe correct, it seems to be woefully underhopped?
3. Why are you doing anything with it 3 days into fermentation, leave it alone!
4. pH of the mash liquor means nothing, measure the alkalinity, use acid to reduce the alkalinity to your target.
5. From personal experience phosphoric acid is best used for descaling your kettle, it precipitates the calcium out of your mash water. Use sulphuric and hydrochloric acids to reduce alkalinity.
6. 14 - 21 is a pretty wide range, pick a temperature and stick to it. With Nottingham 16-17 degrees is good, any higher and it takes ages to loose the green taste.
7. Don't take offence but you don't sound like you're quite ready to start up a micro just yet.

[Charles1968]

The recipe looks pretty tasty to me, but it's too early to judge. Given the level of caramalt and the IBU level (which I reckon is OK), the beer should end up sweet. It will taste horrendous at this stage though. Was your mash temp about 67?

I wouldn't use phosphoric acid to lower the pH. A better approach would be to use tesco ashbeck water (£1-ish per 5 litres) for half the water, to lower your alkalinity. A bit of Munich malt in the grist can also lower the mash pH and helps compensate for london water.

I think the beer will turn out well but you won't know for a month or two.

Edit: sorry, phosphoric acid looks fine. Assume you mean mash pH of 5.2, not water pH.

[Ren]

A few pointers

1. Your recipe means nothing without a brewlength
2. Is your recipe correct, it seems to be woefully underhopped?
3. Why are you doing anything with it 3 days into fermentation, leave it alone!
4. pH of the mash liquor means nothing, measure the alkalinity, use acid to reduce the alkalinity to your target.
5. From personal experience phosphoric acid is best used for descaling your kettle, it precipitates the calcium out of your mash water. Use sulphuric and hydrochloric acids to reduce alkalinity.
6. 14 - 21 is a pretty wide range, pick a temperature and stick to it. With Nottingham 16-17 degrees is good, any higher and it takes ages to loose the green taste.
7. Don't take offence but you don't sound like you're quite ready to start up a micro just yet.

Will it really precipitate calcium that significantly? Can you please tell us what was your personal experience, did you take any measurements?
I have done 13 AG brews with phosphoric acid and havent had any problems.

[keith1664]

No measurements, but for the period I used phosphoric acid I experienced a chalky deposit in the bottom of my HLT and a rock hard scale on the HLT elements. This coincided with a period of very murky beers.
On returning to CRS ( Now I'm using CRS and Sulphuric, soon to be hydrochloric and sulphuric) the deposits and scale went and my beers were clear again.

[iandiggs]

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies.
-Underhopped - I like my beers to have the hoppy taste and a less harsh bitterness, so I often late hop and steep.
-How else do I measure alkalinity if not with PH strips etc..? I have previously used CRS and it didn't seem to work. Phosphoric seems to have worked for my last 2 brews - a Belgian Singel and a Hoppy pale.
-Temperature - Oh, to be able to stick to one fermenting temperature! I am at the mercy of the weather and live in a flat with inconsistent heating. How do you cope with this? Have you adapted a fridge?
-I know I'm not ready for a micro! That is a dream for sometime in the future.
-My mash temp was 67. I often try to increase it a little to retain some unfermentable sugars.
-I have used Ashbeck water before - in fact, for the whole brew, not just half, and it didn't seem to have any affect.

Ian

[Matt12398]

If it's 3 days into fermentation is going to lose sweetness because it's converting sugar to alcohol and CO2. This is the fundamental principle for beer production.

[Sadfield]

Quickest, cheapest and easiest way to control fermentation temp is to put your fv in a large container (eg dustbin) and fill with water, then put a fish tank heater in the water. Amazon do 100w fish tank heaters for £12.

[andyisavinit]

[quote="Sadfield"]Quickest, cheapest and easiest way to control fermentation temp is to put your fv in a large container (eg dustbin) and fill with water, then put a fish tank heater in the water. Amazon do 100w fish tank heaters for £12.[/quote]

And when it's too warm? Add cold water? Sounds good for the winter months. I might try this.

[Sadfield]

Too Warm? I don't brew on that one week of the year.

[Charles1968]

Quickest, cheapest and easiest way to control fermentation temp is to put your fv in a large container (eg dustbin) and fill with water, then put a fish tank heater in the water. Amazon do 100w fish tank heaters for £12.

It's actually a lot easier just to put the FV in a 4-season sleeping bag. It will insulate it from fluctuating temperature outside and help keep the temperature much more steady. In cold weather in holds the warmth from fermentation and keeps the temp from dropping.

In warm weather you can simply put one or two frozen 2-litre water bottles in the sleeping back with the FV. These will lower the temp to any level you want down to 4-5, depending on the number and how often you swap them. I use this method for brewing lager in summer and it's a piece of cake to maintain 10-12 Celsius. The swamp cooler method, which I've also tried, is hopeless, and the fish-tank heater obviously can't chill.

Most new brewers make the mistake of thinking the fermenter needs to be kept warm, like with bread making. It's more often the opposite - you need to keep it cooler than your home, often a lot cooler.

[GrowlingDogBeer]

-How else do I measure alkalinity if not with PH strips etc..?

You measure Alkalinity with an Alkalinity test kit.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Salifert-KH-A ... 3cefa4b643

You use ph Strips to test pH, but they are fairly unreliable so if you really want to test pH then best to get a meter. I only ever use mine to test the pH of Starsan now, I don't bother checking the mash pH.

-I have used Ashbeck water before - in fact, for the whole brew, not just half, and it didn't seem to have any affect.

Ashbeck is pretty useless for brewing, it doesn't contain anything.

[Sadfield]

Charles 1968, all valid points, although you can use ice in the water instead of a fish tank heater, if you need to cool. Also, the fish tank heater allows for controlled temperature ramping for brewing Saison etc, upto 27-30C. The biggest bonus however is it can be set up and left for weeks at constant temp with no intervention.

[Charles1968]

Charles 1968, all valid points, although you can use ice in the water instead of a fish tank heater, if you need to cool. Also, the fish tank heater allows for controlled temperature ramping for brewing Saison etc, upto 27-30C. The biggest bonus however is it can be set up and left for weeks at constant temp with no intervention.

Yes great for keeping something warm, particularly if you ferment in an unheated space like a garage. Ice in the dustbin doesn't last long without insulation though. You'd have to keep topping up every few hours. I've tried that with a swamp cooler and it couldn't get the temp down. A bottle of frozen water inside a sleeping bag stays frozen for several days at this time of year. Once you've got the wort temp down, it doesn't move easily once its insulated (large thermal mass).