Cloudy Beer Infection????

[Beau]

I have made several AG brews and all have turned out fine without any problems, however, the last two have been undrinkable, very cloudy with a unpleasant sour aftertaste, I used Star San on the first batch, VWP on the second on all equipment before and after the boil. The only difference from the previous successful brew's was I had purchase a 2Lt flask to make the starter for the last brew (Black Sheep Ale...... R Wheeler) made from wort from mash without boiling it using Safale S04, on my successful batches I sprinkled the S04 on top of the wort.

I have a stainless steel 45Lt gas powered boiler with I use to mash and boil is also fitted with reversible pump which I use to pump the wort out after the mash and pump it back in for the boil. I have wort chiller made from and old immersion spiral out of a hot water tank which I boiled for 20 mins before the end of the boil.

My Questions are

Does Star San go off as I had made it some time ago?
Which is the best Star San or VWP?
Did I need to boil the wort I took from the mash to make the started?
Would the 90 min boil have killed any infections within the pump, pipes etc?
I have read a starter is better than putting the yeast on top of the wort?
Would the wort chiller be a problem as is was salvaged from a hot water tank?
How do I test for infections within my equipment?
If I have an infection how do I remove it?

I would be very greatful of any help or advice offered.

Beau..

[charliemartin]

Hi Beau,
I think this is quite simply answered. Yes, you should have boiled the wort for the starter! One of the main reasons for boiling wort is to sanitise it. To make a starter with unboiled wort is asking for an infection. Secondly you don't need a starter with dried yeast. Just rehydrate it in 10 times its weight of boiled, cooled (to about 25C) water. With regard to sanitising equipment, I would definitely recommend using Starsan. Very cost effective and does a good job of sanitising without the nuisance of rinsing. The only thing you have to watch for is the Ph of your water you make it up with. Alkaline water will not work very well as it is an acid based sanitiser. It won't keep forever, so if it turns cloudy you should change it. Since it is so cheap to make a batch you could change it each time you need it virtually.
Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[Matt12398]

I agree with everything Charlie says. The only thing I would say is that cloudy Starsan is not the best indicator for it needing replacing. I have very low alkalinity water so have no issues but it still is slightly cloudy sometimes. The best way is to check the pH is below 3. If it is it's good to go. I make fresh each time though.

If you're using dried yeast it's the correct cell count usually up to about a wort of 1.060 so only requires rehydration using the method Charlie has described. You can make a starter from rehydrated yeast but this is not typically required since the cell count is most likely at the correct level and you'd otherwise be over pitching.

Starsan is much better than VWP because it's no-rinse.

To test with infections you'd need some microbiological lab equipment.

To remove an infection from your equipment you need to clean it well. Bleach is effective but you need to be careful on stainless.

[Kev888]

Does Star San go off as I had made it some time ago?
It 'usually' lasts for a long time; its ideal in fact for keeping around in a squirty bottle to always be on hand. However, if your mixture was already close to having a PH of 3.0 then it may not take much to climb above it. As matt mentioned above, if the PH of the mixed solution is more than 3.0 its supposedly getting dodgy; not everyone's tap water is suitable to achieve that - I use distilled/reverse-osmosis water with it (as my tap water isn't suitable), it then lasts for many weeks.

Which is the best Star San or VWP?
Starsan is a better sanitiser, it kills more things, BUT its not really designed to shift crud etc like I believe VWP is. So normally you'd physically clean with something else first, such as PBW, oxy-cleaner, soda crystals etc. and rinse very thoroughly, then sanitise with starsan as a second step.

That may sound like an extra step over VWP, but it means that as starsan (diluted appropriately) is safe not to be rinsed and as all the crud was rinsed out previously at the cleaning stage the equipment can then simply be drained, without flushing with (say) non-sterile tap water after sanitising. As starsan acts very quickly and conveniently, it can also be used on (previously cleaned) equipment minutes before you use it, helping ensure things don't become infected after sanitising.

Did I need to boil the wort I took from the mash to make the started?
Yes, grain isn't sterile and so neither is the wort until after its boiled, if you leave unboiled wort for a bit all kinds of smelly things sprout up in it. As well as correcting that, you may want to get into the habit of inspecting any starter before pitching - (carefully observing sanitation) check the specific gravity has done what you expected and possibly even extract a bit to taste (it will be horrible, but shouldn't be say vinegar). EDIT: But see below as I think you may have confused/combined 'rehydrating' and 'starters'.

Would the 90 min boil have killed any infections within the pump, pipes etc?
If you recirculated the boiling wort then very likely it would be fine, probably in fact. Except if the design of pump were unsuitable and had any really deep crevices or backwaters that don't get properly hot (or if you didn't recirculate the hot stuff), in which case then possibly not.

I have read a starter is better than putting the yeast on top of the wort?
'Rehydrating' dried yeast with boiled-then-cooled water isn't mandatory (so some people don't bother) but it is better for them than tipping directly into the rich wort; for that reason I would not rehydrate using wort either, as it defeats the purpose. 'Starters' are made with wort but are something different, they are basically a mini fermentation designed to cause the yeast to multiply over a period of many hours, and are normally used to grow up small quantities of viable yeast cells - say from a liquid yeast vial or a bottle of live beer. Its not normal to use a starter with dried yeast, partly because a sachet has so many viable cells already and partly because they have been rather specially prepared/packaged, and that benefit would be wasted in the starter.

Would the wort chiller be a problem as is was salvaged from a hot water tank?
If its an Immersion Cooler then provided its reasonably clean looking its unlikely to leech any off flavours, and yes boiling it in the wort for 20mins is normally considered to sanitise it sufficiently. Though make sure if its a recycled copper tube that there are no areas of green verdigris/corrosion on it, I think that is poisonous. (I like to put my IC in a tad earlier, but thats mostly because it can briefly cool the wort down and I don't like it affecting the boil during my late hop timings).

How do I test for infections within my equipment?
I've always thought it very hard for a non-scientist like me to trace infections - most home-brewing is sanitised rather than completely sterilised so there's likely to be 'something' grow if you take samples from anywhere and wait long enough, even from a sufficiently clean system. It sounds very likely to be down to your starter wort though, so hopefully you won't need to!

If I have an infection how do I remove it?
If you do then a very, very thorough physical hot-soak-cleaning of everything (especially post-boil equipment) in a strong cleaner like PBW or an oxy-cleaner, followed by a thorough sanitising (say with starsan) and probably boiling any smaller parts that can safely be boiled. Anything post-boil thats porous or has crevices that can't be cleaned effectively probably should be replaced if it can't be boiled. But as mentioned, I think this is likely down to your process with the wort starter rather than an infection elsewhere.

Sorry, being long-winded again! Hope that helps anyway

Cheers
kev

[Fil]

whats the fermentor like?? if a cheap bucket demote it to storage and replace it

rehydrating a pack of indate yeast in a small volume of sterile water is more than ample for 5gallon brews, but if making a starter for bigger brews or to save some yeast consider some dme, 100g made upto 1l iirc give u a 1040 ideal gravity solution.. and as time is needed for the yeast to eat the food and build up the population preparing in advance is easy unlike using mash liqour an hour or so in advance, thats only really going to hydrate the yeast anyway.

while im verging on ocd on the cold side of a brew cleaning/sanitising (starsan tested with ph strips ) on the way into use and on the way out, with the tun and boiler i only scrub and rinse well before draining and towel drying, no moisture no problems..

its a gamble ive read posts from folk who add back the samples taken for gravity tests who swear they never have a problem??

any dusty shelves over where you prep the fermentor???

[Beau]

Hi all

Thanks for the very detail answer to all of my questions. I have attempted another brew last weekend and before I read your reply's I decided to boil the starter as you all pointed out, I have racked the beer to the Keg and fingers crossed it looks to be much clearer than before..

Thanks again to all

Very Best Regards

Beau.