Water adjustments for the mountains

[donchiquon]

I've finally gotten around to having a water analysis done by Wallybrew. Pic attached.

We're right next to Mont Blanc, so I wondered if there would be quantities of anything unusual but apparently we're similar to Wales, Cornwall, Devon, Cumbria and Scotland.

I've had a look at the water adjustment calculators but am a bit baffled.

Any advice on first steps? I brew a range of pale ales, IPA's, Special bitters and ESBs.

Thanks!




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[BenB]

I'd call that a"blank canvas" for ESBs etc you'll need to add some alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, sulfate etc etc. For ESBs you can use a fair amount of sodium so some of your alkalinity can come from sodium bicarb. I'd plug it all into a water calculator and go from there!

[donchiquon]

Thanks Ben

Which water calculator is easy to use?

I'm currently using BeerSmith for everything else.


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[BrannigansLove]

I use Bru'n Water. It looks a little daunting initially, but is very simple once you get your head round it. The little comments on the inputs are extremely helpful in understanding water chemistry.

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

I've just water results back today. And have been tinkering with the water profile tool on that. Have a look seems good.


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[donchiquon]

Thanks guys. I've had a crack at it but I seem to be missing a critical figure.

I don't have a bicarbonate value in my report, and without it the calculated alkalinity value remains at 0.

Am I missing something?

Thanks!


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[Matt in Birdham]

Firstly I just want to say that you have great water! I'm jealous.

You should be able to enter your alkalinity as CaCO3, for which you do have a number (37). Also take a look at the Brewers Friend online calculator, which is easy to use and (I have found so far) pretty accurate (plus don't forget the calculator on this site, which is also good).
You are going to want to up your calcium somehow - CaCl or Gypsum will do it, and also help with mash pH for lighter beers - but you are in a pretty good starting spot.

[donchiquon]

Firstly I just want to say that you have great water! I'm jealous.

You should be able to enter your alkalinity as CaCO3, for which you do have a number (37). Also take a look at the Brewers Friend online calculator, which is easy to use and (I have found so far) pretty accurate (plus don't forget the calculator on this site, which is also good).
You are going to want to up your calcium somehow - CaCl or Gypsum will do it, and also help with mash pH for lighter beers - but you are in a pretty good starting spot.

Thanks Matt, I've never been complimented on my water before - thought that wasn't supposed to happen until you were at least 80! Nice to know that the local stuff is a good start though.

I have to say that this is the first area of brewing where I feel completely out of my depth. It makes working with yeast seem like common sense. The water calculators could end up telling me to check in a litre of acid and I wouldn't have a clue whether it made sense or not!

Wallybrew was good enough to recommend the JBK tool, which I found nice and simple to use. I got a bit stuck with Brewersfriend, am I supposed to enter the salt additions myself? They don't seem to calculate automatically...

I managed to finish the JBK calculations and for a Pale Ale profile it has recommended the addition of (i) gypsum, (ii) dihydrate, (iii) Espsom salts and (iv) common salts. I've attached the report in case anyone can spot any daft mistakes that I have made (highly likely!).

The gypsum fits with your prediction....how important are the other additions? I'm thinking I may as well order all of the chemicals (will table salt or sea salt do for the common salt addition?) and add the lot, if I'm already taking the trouble to do the calcs!

Thanks as usual to everyone for the advice.

[Matt in Birdham]

Everyone's taste is different, so if you like the really minerally ale profile then go for it. For me, I like the sulphate around 150-200 in my pales and chloride 50-100. I wouldn't worry much about sodium or magnesium, although I do sometimes add a bit of table salt. Magnesium is provided by the malt (so they say), so unless you have a strong need to add sulphate without calcium I wouldn't bother with the epsom salts either.

If it was me I would start simple and add something like 10g of gypsum and 3g of calcium chloride in a 20 l batch which would give you a moderate hoppy/bitter profile but not over the top and plenty of calcium.

[donchiquon]

Hmmm....the minerally ale profile....no idea! That was just the closest to the majority of the beers I brew...most are similar to yours, and then I throw in a few bitters and ESB's when I'm missing home!!

So when you talk about the sulphate at 150-200, and chloride 50-100 this is versus the profile figures of 329 and 164 respectively? Just so that I understand what we're comparing. In which case about half the amount. Is this because the profile is dryer than the pales/IPA's that we're brewing?

And should I be applying this to the entire water volume? Mash and sparge?

Thanks
dc

PS sorry to hear about your fridge - that is a PITA. If it's any consolation I picked up an old glass-fronted coke fridge last week and it was dead on arrival. The seller is claiming it was working when it left, and it looks as though I am about to say goodbye to 150 euros. The Beko's you're looking at are good value and reliable. We've used them for years. Hope you find one to fit your shelf.

[Matt in Birdham]

Everyone's got their own opinion on sulphate and chloride levels - in the US, in particular, they are averse to the latter but you'll find plenty of people on this forum with the opposite experience. I've certainly brewed good beers with chloride ~150 but generally I am not as heavy on the minerals now as I used to be. You can actually add sulphate and chloride to finished beer (dilute gypsum/ca cl and add a few drops), so you can find the level you prefer. The main thing from a brewing perspective is probably to increase your calcium somewhat and make sure you hit your mash pH, which gypsum and CaCl can help with. I always full volume mash these days, so all my additions go into the mash. How you end up splitting it might depend on what the mash ph calculates as with your additions.
Yeah bummer about the fridge (and yours!) - maybe there is a reason that people sell them? I think I will treat myself to a new one and avoid drilling it until the guarantee expires.

[Aleman]

Firstly I just want to say that you have great water!

I have similar water, and it isn't that great for brewing, I'd prefer it to have more alkalinity and calcium . . . adding calcium is easy, increasing alkalinity is a lot trickier . . . and I like my dark beers

It's ok for brewing pale ales with calcium sulphate and calcium chloride additions though, even Pilsners benefit from some calcium chloride and calcium sulphate.

Personally I stay away from the US calculators as I really dislike the idea of building a water profile to hit a target mash pH which is what they seem geared to do, and Grahams calculator here is one of the more simple ones to use.

[donchiquon]

I have similar water, and it isn't that great for brewing, I'd prefer it to have more alkalinity and calcium . . . adding calcium is easy, increasing alkalinity is a lot trickier . . . and I like my dark beers

It's ok for brewing pale ales with calcium sulphate and calcium chloride additions though, even Pilsners benefit from some calcium chloride and calcium sulphate.

Personally I stay away from the US calculators as I really dislike the idea of building a water profile to hit a target mash pH which is what they seem geared to do, and Grahams calculator here is one of the more simple ones to use.

And just when I thought I was onto a good thing!..... I'll shelve the plans for bottling the water then.

For my pales - did you think the suggested additions on Grahams calc were reasonable or is the profile a bit extreme and should I tame them a bit? (I guess I'm looking for a profile for hoppy pales/IPAs and then another for SB's/ESB's...I rarely go dark!)

When you mention that increasing alkalinity is a lot trickier what did you mean by this? I'm in the dark a bit with water treatment - do the additions not "take care" of this?

[donchiquon]

In an effort to understand the treatment calculators a bit better I've now entered the water report into the Brewers Friend calculator. I've selected the light coloured and hoppy profile and then gone back into Graham's and entered this as a custom profile to see what the two calculators both recommend. Graham's made some balancing calculations which meant that the profile didn't match exactly.

Brewers Friend doesn't generate recommendations for additions (unless I have missed something) so I have plugged in the additions that Graham's recommended.

The result seems to leave me over the limit on Ca+2 and HCO, and more confused than I was when I first made the decision that I should start tackling water,

Am I trying to match apples and pears? Should I just stick in the additions that Graham's calc suggests, using the custom light and hoppy profile or have I stuffed things up by entering the custom profile?

[Matt in Birdham]

I wouldn't worry too much about the calcium, so long as you have enough (I typically have over 100ppm). Looks like a good profile for your light beers -pretty much what I aim for in most of mine. You might need a touch of acid in some form, or maybe not. Try plugging your grist into the BF calculator and seeing what pH it calculates - I find that one is usually quite accurate, for these sorts of beers at least.