What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

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What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:39 pm

Hi,
I live in USA and strictly brew English bitters and follow tight guidelines from Wheeler's book. I cannot get CSR in the USA. I am now boiling but this takes a lot of energy. What do folks use who cannot get ASM CRS in USA to reduce bicarbonates? I do not want to get a RO system, or use distilled water.

I seen articles about mixing acids to make CRS but that looks a bit dodgy and cannot find food grade hydrochloride acid at a fair price anyways.

I been looking into using pickling lime and then lower the PH with phosphoric acid afterwards, but not sure what amounts of each I should use to do that. Most guidelines on pickling line are talking about raising alkalinity and not reducing bicarbonates.

Lactic seems risky for taste changes.



I have well water just like Hook Norton. Waiting for water report from wardlabs. I may be starting my own commercial brewery in near future on my property (using the well water of course) so want to get this step down.

Thanks

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Jocky » Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:37 pm

It depends what your water report says. If you have low enough alkalinity then a mix of lactic and phosphoric would be ok.

But as someone with alkalinity >250ppm (as CaCO3) whose supply of sulphuric acid seems to have dried up, I’ve just purchased a cheap RO system.

I’m an advocate of working with supply water where you can, but it can be difficult to build certain end profiles with CRS.

See what your water report says, brew some beer, then maybe try the same beers brewed with partial RO water and see if you’re happier with the results. That’s what matters most.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by vacant » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:33 pm

Jocky wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:37 pm
But as someone with alkalinity >250ppm (as CaCO3) whose supply of sulphuric acid seems to have dried up, I’ve just purchased a cheap RO system.
260 here. 10% of my hard tap water and 90% RO gets me to where I want to start for my pale beers. I've had my £35 RO system for years. Filtered the water yesterday, brewed today. The waste water I collected was run through my IC with a £5 aquarium pump, then I used the warmed waste water for cleaning my gear.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Trefoyl » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:36 pm

I live in the US and I'm pretty sure you can still get reagent quality sulfuric and hydrochloric. I bought sulfuric but have never used it. It can only be shipped ground by UPS or FedEx.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:37 am

Far and away most of us use either Phosphoric Acid or Lactic Acid.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Carnot » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:25 am

If it is any consolation obtaining sulphuric cid in the UK is now very difficult, all due to a certain ethnic faction having a propensity for throwing acid into the faces of women. Thankfully AMS/ CRS is still available.
One option that you might wish to consider is to go back to the old days and soften with lime. This process has almost died out but is very effective at reducing carbonates and calcium. It is not that difficult or expensive, but you will need to learn the art. Essentially you add slaked lime to the water which converts the bicarbonate to carbonate which precipitates as calcium carbonate. The trick is to know the calcium, magnesium and alkalinity fairly accurately and add just enough lime. The reaction is Calcium Bicarbonate + Calcium hydroxide = 2 Calcium Carbonate + 2 water. That means that you need to add one mole of lime (hydrated) per mole of calcium carbonate. Mix well and allow to stand . Warm the solution and allow to cool slowly with gentle agitation. The calcium carbonate will precipitate. With care you should be able to get the alkalinity and calcium down to about 60 mg/L (or even less) as calcium carbonate.Ideally filtering the treated water will capture any suspended solids of calcium carbonate. Easy to say but not so easy to do for a large volume of water. I would be tempted to use a cartridge drinking water filter (not carbon). If you have the book Water- A comprehensive guide for brewers- page 108. I reckon an SS Brewtech brewbucket would probably work as the softening vessel. Draw off the water via the racking tube. You should be able to see a significant conductivity reduction. The pH will be above 7, but the treated water will react strongly to acid addition. Another option might be to use a corny keg with a floating draw off. This process works best with high calcium bicarbonate waters 200 + mg/L. I worked on several of these plants many years ago (1984 in Saudi Arabia) treating really hard well water.

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by PeeBee » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:09 pm

Carnot wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:25 am
... One option that you might wish to consider is to go back to the old days and soften with lime. ...
Wow, now there is a can-of-worms! I still bear the scars of being involved in arguments that included that subject not so long ago. Using calcium hydroxide (lime) to reduce alkalinity; which it does in certain conditions. But I wont dare go there; best if I get out now.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by chastuck » Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:38 pm

The other simple option that US brewers use is to simply cut their water with RO or distilled water. Why it should be the case I don't know, but both RO and distilled water are more readily available in the US being sold at many supermarkets, and is generally very cheap compared to prices here.

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by LeeH » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:26 am

You can pick up an RO filter for under 40 quid so I’d go with that.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Cobnut » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:28 am

My local HBC has recently been discussing these guys:

https://spotlesswater.co.uk/

Seems they are popping up around the country and you can pitch up and collect as much RO as you can transport for about 4p a litre. If you live close, it's probably cheaper and easier than having your own RO system.

Not that I bother with RO - I'm happy enough with CRS/AMS.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Jocky » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:47 am

Also worth looking for local aquarium shops who will usually sell RO water. Just check the TDS or alkalinity to check their RO membranes are working ok.
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:56 pm

I have well water..which is free and taste pretty good, so I am not looking for RO water. Right now I been boiling 22 gallons, decanting to make 12 gallon brews that I put into either 2 pins or 1 firkin. As I said, I am planning on going large probably in a few years, as I have a spare building that I wish to make into a brewery and pub and use this well water. Thinking about a 1 BBL or 2 BBL system to start with. Still waiting for report as just got bottle to return. Thinking either sticking with boiling method or looking into phosphoric acid.

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Trefoyl » Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:29 am

There is a lot of info here about water treatment. Phosphoric is not traditional in British brewing and has significant limitations.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=82569
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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Huf » Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:42 am

The more I look into this I think it is just easier to get a RO system. Anyone know of UK brewery that uses RO?

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Re: What do you use if in USA to reduce Bicarbonates - cannot get CRS

Post by Carnot » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:05 pm

I would strongly sugest you get a water analysis so that you know what you are dealing with. I suspect that you are not in the UK as we would not normally use phosphoric acid for alkalinity control. Once you know what you are dealing with it is easier to decide on the treatment, which very much is influenced by what type of beer that you wish to brew.
RO is merely an option. I have bought an RO system but it comes with more than a few disadvantages. It can consume a phenomenal amount of water which is rejected. My denstist installed an RO system and had a 20:1 reject ratio. Not a misprint. If you have high calcium water then a base exchange water softener will significantly extend the RO membrane life. For most doemstic sized system you need in excess of 80 psi to give a good permeate to retentate ratio.
RO water is also highly corrosive so plastic/stainless is a must.
I would think about treating with mineral acid (if possible) maybe with blending with RO to achieve the desired Ca/ Alkalinity, S04/ Cl.
Would you go the RO route then you will have to mineralise the brewing water with calcium salts ( CaCl2, CaSO4, CaCO3).
I prefer to not go down this route. Whay not use what is already there.Get an analysis and then decide what is best for your water/ beer.
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