Aerator paddle?

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MashBag
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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by MashBag » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:20 pm

Lol.

Update.. they do come in a couple of shapes.
In other uses they will mix mash. I also think beating seven shadesof sugar out of apples might be possible. As well as food use.

Why you not aerate?

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by PeeBee » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:52 pm

MashBag wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:20 pm
... Why you not aerate?
Earlier in the thread I attempted a hi-jack (well, I make a bit of a habit of it). Your answers are in that post, but there was no takers (again, :( ), so as you are giving me the opportunity, I'll repeat that bit here and perhaps I'll get answers this time?
PeeBee wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:14 pm
... But whichever oxygenator one uses; do we need it? Using agitated yeast starters or dry yeast and avoiding "under-pitching", why do we bother? I still oxygenate my big fermenter (70L) with pure oxygen (lifetime supply as mentioned, so no reason to stop). But I don't bother oxygenating my small fermenter (30L* Grainfather).
The yeast will still use the extra oxygen to grow some more, but it shouldn't need to? If using liquid yeast packs directly and yeast retrieval techniques without a starter the (oxygen starved) yeast may need the extra O2 to build up numbers. But once fermentation gets going the CO2 created will strip the O2 out ("Partial Pressure" again) so do we really need to add the extra O2 to the wort?

(Note: Stirrers and shaking are the means of incorporating oxygen into a starter, so the yeast can grow in numbers. But many people don't believe this because oxygen has got such a bad reputation, and quite rightly so in the later stages but not when the yeast is trying to grow a healthy population).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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MashBag
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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by MashBag » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:49 pm

The boil removes all DO so the idea is you add it back.
I was taught that you do need to add o2 to help the yeast grow (multiply) during the aerobic stage. Only after this had completed do they go anaerobic and start alcohol production.

Certainly for wine yeasts air is introduced for a few days, but then the total fermentation length is longer (more sugars to work with)

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MashBag
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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by MashBag » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:52 pm

So are you really saying that after a boil, you have sprinkled a dried yeast and it run aok?

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by MashBag » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:58 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:52 pm
...
But many people don't believe this because oxygen has got such a bad reputation, and quite rightly so in the later stages but not when the yeast is trying to grow a healthy population).
Absolutely

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by PeeBee » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:21 pm

MashBag wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:52 pm
So are you really saying that after a boil, you have sprinkled a dried yeast and it run aok?
Yes!

As long as the estimated optimum cell count is sufficient (usually the case for in-date dried yeast packs).

We have calculators these days to estimate the right number of cells to pitch for "optimum" performance.

My liquid yeasts are always run through a stirred starter regime, so the yeast cells are saturated in products that require oxygen to last for a few generations. Like dried yeast (a consequence of it's manufacture).

Yeast is fairly lazy and will always use easy anaerobic respiration if there is plenty of food. It only switches to complicated aerobic respiration when food gets short ... provided there is oxygen available (i.e. never, if we can help it!).

Yet we thrash our beer to introduce more oxygen. Doesn't add up does it?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by PeeBee » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:32 pm

Not one of my madcap ideas either. I had to convince myself before copying others that did without aerating.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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MashBag
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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by MashBag » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:28 pm

Hmm. That's made me think. Did it affect the taste.. Or the length of fermentation?

I have a house brew that it would not be toooo difficult to run a test against.
Last edited by MashBag on Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by Jocky » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:20 am

I can understand sprinkling dry yeast and it being ok. I don’t think wet yeast would work as well.

Having said that ‘optimum cell count’ is somewhat subjective.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by MashBag » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:58 am

Jocky wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:20 am
I can understand sprinkling dry yeast and it being ok. I don’t think wet yeast would work as well.

Having said that ‘optimum cell count’ is somewhat subjective.
Why would sprinkling dry yeast without aeration work and wet not so ? Not picking a fight Jocky, just trying to understand.

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by Cobnut » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:03 am

This is one I’m struggling with too, given the wide spread views that using pure oxygen makes a difference to beers.

Where is the evidence that this is the case?

Perhaps another one of those Brulosophy trials that rarely ever “prove” anything


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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by guypettigrew » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:42 am

This probably won't add much to the debate, but here goes.

My brews are always fermented with wet yeast which has been grown up in a solution of about 115g DME in 1L water. I use a stir plate.

The wort gets from the boiler to the fermenter via a pump through some silicone tubing and dropped into the fermenter through a fitting in the lid. Which means it gets pretty well splashed about as the FV fills. I don't further aerate the wort in the FV with a spoon or whisk.

The wet yeast is added and fermentation almost always starts within 5-7 hours. By which I mean, bubbles are coming through the blow off tube.

I've thought about using oxygen, coz it's always fun getting new kit, but there seems no point. Fermentation starting in <7 hours seems good enough to me.

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Jocky
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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by Jocky » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:15 am

MashBag wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:58 am
Jocky wrote:
Tue Mar 11, 1975 3:20 am
I can understand sprinkling dry yeast and it being ok. I don’t think wet yeast would work as well.

Having said that ‘optimum cell count’ is somewhat subjective.
Why would sprinkling dry yeast without aeration work and wet not so ? Not picking a fight Jocky, just trying to understand.
Oxygen is primarily needed by yeast to synthesise sterols in order to replicate in the growth phase.

Dry yeast is packaged with all the sterols they need, so oxygen is redundant if you’re just adding dry yeast.

Wet yeast will have limited sterols in reserve, so benefits greatly from added oxygen at pitching time.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by PeeBee » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:27 am

This is not a "choice" source of information of mine, but this article seems to cover what I was saying (I was looking up how to spell "sterols" when I came across it, but there's too much to read at this time in the morning and I haven't properly subjected it to my "bo11ocks detector", but a cursory glance seems to pass it as "head screwed on" material?):

Oxygen's Role in the Fermentation of Beer

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jocky wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:20 am
I can understand sprinkling dry yeast and it being ok. I don’t think wet yeast would work as well.

Having said that ‘optimum cell count’ is somewhat subjective.
You appear to be causing confusion with those comments, but I can see where you are coming from ("I can see ..." is also somewhat subjective!). Dried yeast is created by industrial techniques and can be counted on as "compliant". "Wet yeast" (liquid yeast from a starter) is created by uncontrolled methods at home which can include ineffective aeration. As for "optimum cell count" that's the idea of "Target Pitch Rate (millions/(mL × °P)" and is subject to trust in the calculators, following starter creation carefully, etc. to get approximate values of 75 for "ale/beer" and 150 for "lager"; I choose to aim for 60-65 and I believe you can go down to 50 (or just wing it!).

"Cell count" can be estimated with some expensive equipment and tedious methodology, else you are back to trusting the information from manufacturers and dodgy yeast starter calculators (I, like most others, go for the latter).


[EDIT: Ooo, Jocky! Appears we cross posted. But I was assuming you meant liquid yeast from a starter; I'd already excluded liquid yeast from direct pitch earlier in the thread.]
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Aerator paddle?

Post by MashBag » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:56 am

Hmm. I have a feeling there's are some facts lurking about in here for dried yeasts..
Based on:
Bread yeast starts without DO
Dried Wine yeast (for grapes) don't need aeration to start.
Country wines don't aerate at all.
Neither do distillers yeasts.

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