Sparge technique

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guypettigrew
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Sparge technique

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:09 pm

For years my sparge technique has remained the same. But it seems I've been doing it wrong.

When I've been within 8-10 litres of the final volume in the boiler I've turned off the sparge water and let the liquor in the grains drain through. This gives me almost completely drained grains and the volume I want in the boiler.

But a couple of brews ago the run off from the boiler stuck. I had to pull the hop filter out, clean it, and replace it. The wort eventually got to the fermenter, but it was really slow.

This was using Maris Otter from MM. So I contacted Rob and asked for advice. He kindly contacted Fawcett's with the photo I sent him.

This is where it gets interesting. I'd assumed the stuff bunging up the filter was trub. I've always had this sort of deposit at the end of draining the boiler, just never enough to block the hop filter. Always assumed it was trub. How wrong was I? Fawcett's said no. It was flour from the malt. Well, knock me down with a feather.

Fawcett's suggested this could happen if the grains weren't kept floating. They didn't know my sparge technique when they suggested this, but the problem was one they recognised. By draining the mash tun the grains can compact down and cause this to happen. Can't quite get my head around why this would be the case, but Fawcett's clearly understand why.

Rob also suggested the grains may have been crushed slightly more than usual, which would give more flour. It all began to make sense now.

So, the following week I brewed again. The grain bill was exactly the same, and the MO was the second 5kg bag I'd bought at the same time as the other. Presumably identical.

The sparge liquor was kept running all the way through, which meant there was a good 10 litres to drain off the tun after the pre boil volume had been reached.

The result? Good run off from the boiler and a completely different presentation of the residual hops.

Many thanks to Rob for helping me sort this, and to Fawcett's as well for taking the trouble to reply.

Perhaps everybody sparges like this, and I'm just late to the party! No going back now, though.
problem sparge with flour.jpg
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clear sparge.jpg
clear sparge.jpg (3.6 MiB) Viewed 1473 times

Guy
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f00b4r
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Re: Sparge technique

Post by f00b4r » Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:36 pm

I have added the photos Guy. No idea why it is showing multiple times now (I re-added due to a typo) but will try and sort it out later today.
An amazing difference though on the sparging!

guypettigrew
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Re: Sparge technique

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:38 pm

Thanks f00b4r, much appreciated.

Guy

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vacant
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Re: Sparge technique

Post by vacant » Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:55 pm

I'm wondering if this can this also happen when the sparge is too fast?

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Re: Sparge technique

Post by Dads_Ale » Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:30 pm

I have a similar sparge technique in that a stop the sparge water 4 or 5 ltrs before I have achieved final volume in my boiler. This usually results in a further run off of about 4 lts. The last brew I pretty much drained the mash tun into the boiler and did not get the results you show in the first photo, very much like the second photo. I do however use a very slow sparge and it take me over an hour to fill the boiler to around 40lts.
I have use two different mash tuns, one with a bazooka filter and one an SS Brewtech unit. Both give similar results.
I also used pre-crushed pale malt from Warminster and home crushed (quite a fine crush) and again I get good results from both.

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Re: Sparge technique

Post by clarets7 » Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:10 pm

I've had exactly the same problem with my one pot Klarstein system - I thought it was the filter that was too fine so I bought a bazooka filter. The thing is, with a one pot system what do you do, the grains have to drain fully. Is the crush too fine do you think? Maybe I should buy that mill after all...
I actually got round it by buying a hop filter and using the pump to empty into the fermentor, but I'd prefer it to be filtered through the hops.
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Re: Sparge technique

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:26 pm

Dads_Ale wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:30 pm
I have a similar sparge technique in that a stop the sparge water 4 or 5 ltrs before I have achieved final volume in my boiler. This usually results in a further run off of about 4 lts. The last brew I pretty much drained the mash tun into the boiler and did not get the results you show in the first photo, very much like the second photo. I do however use a very slow sparge and it take me over an hour to fill the boiler to around 40lts.
I have use two different mash tuns, one with a bazooka filter and one an SS Brewtech unit. Both give similar results.
I also used pre-crushed pale malt from Warminster and home crushed (quite a fine crush) and again I get good results from both.
My technique was a bit more extreme than yours!

I also go for nearly 40 litres in the boiler, but stop the sparge water running into the mash tun when there's about 28 litres in the boiler. This drains the grain almost completely, therefore compacting it. This, combined with the likelihood the malt had been crushed a bit more finely than usual, is what caused the malt flour to run through into the boiler, according to Fawcett's advice.

If 4-5 litres had been left in the tun then, possibly, the problem wouldn't occur. The result in the first photo is similar to what I see every brew, just lots more.

Guy

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Re: Sparge technique

Post by Cobnut » Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:33 pm

clarets7 wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:10 pm
I've had exactly the same problem with my one pot Klarstein system - I thought it was the filter that was too fine so I bought a bazooka filter. The thing is, with a one pot system what do you do, the grains have to drain fully. Is the crush too fine do you think? Maybe I should buy that mill after all...
I actually got round it by buying a hop filter and using the pump to empty into the fermentor, but I'd prefer it to be filtered through the hops.
I’ve been thinking about this too. I brew with a grainfather - similar to Klatstein, just higher budget :D. My usual process is to prepare slightl6 more storage water than Brewfather calculates for me (in case I need it to hit my boil volume), but by the time I’ve added “enough” sparge water, the wort is usually barely trickling through. I’m wondering whether if I prepared loads of sparge water and kept pouring it through and simply lift off the malt pipe when I’ve hit my boil volume, I might get less “flour” in the boil?

I’m sure you could do the same with a Klarstein.
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Re: Sparge technique

Post by Eric » Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:42 am

I have a Valentine arm on the mash tun outlet to keep the liquor at a constant level. When sparging is finished, the remaining wort is ran off and boiled down for a yeast starter.
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Re: Sparge technique

Post by clarets7 » Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:59 am

I’m wondering whether if I prepared loads of sparge water and kept pouring it through and simply lift off the malt pipe when I’ve hit my boil volume, I might get less “flour” in the boil?
Before Guy even mentioned this I was thinking of changing my process completely - get my old HLT out and at the end of the mash sparge as I used to, but instead of draining out of the Klarstein using the pump to transfer into another vessel just above it. That way I can stop sparging when I have the volume, and what's left in the Klarstein can just be drained away, along with any flour, and then the (hopefully crystal clear) wort run back into the Klarstein.
But maybe there shouldn't be so much flour in the grain to start with?
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Re: Sparge technique

Post by Jocky » Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:04 pm

I've seen that when I drain the mash tun after sparging that the floating grain bed collapses in on itself, leaving gaps around the outside of the grain bed and causing the final wort runnings to go around it rather than filter through the grain bed.

I wonder if that is what is happening - that the flour that should be left on top of the grain bed is being sucked around the outside of the grain bed.

I have to also say though that I don't get that much flour in my kettle, and I tend to batch sparge (drain mash tun, add either all or half sparge water, mix up the grains, recirculate a few litres then drain it off entirely and optionally repeat), but then if I'm getting really cloudy runnings from the mash tun I will recirculate it back to the top of the grain bed.
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