Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:35 am

Eric wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:55 pm
I'd bet my that Garston BS was a processed sugar or a waste product from sugar refining in or near Liverpool. More, I'll bet Henry Tate, a Liverpool grocer who got involved in sugar refining, had at some time involvement in a company that processed it. In 1921 his company merged with Lyle's of Greenock, where named sugars that Ron Pattinson found, but couldn't recognise, were produced.

I think Ron compiled a list in his blog of brewing sugar names he'd come across, but couldn't identify. Some of those I identified as from Lyle's in Greenock and suggest that Garston was from Tate's, as Garston docks took the overflow from Liverpool when there was no more land free for development near the docks in the mid 19th century.

In 1941, after 3 Atlantic crossings and prior to the vessel traversing the Manchester Ship Canal to unload, my father was discharged at Garston. The ship next loaded a military cargo in the Clyde for North Africa. With the Italian Navy commanding the Mediterranean Sea, the Thistlegorm sailed round the Horn to the Red Sea to be bombed with its cargo intact, my father fortunately having joined another ship.
I never thought of linking that sugar with the place near Liverpool (Speke). I used this new information to add a comment (or two) to one of Ron Pattinson's recent Blog posts with something relevant to this thread; might get a response?

Let's Brew Wednesday - 1901 Boddington IPA

That is a very eerie photo of the Thistlegorm!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by Eric » Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:38 pm

Noticed that in your link above Ron has written Garton, not Garston as in your previous quote from him. Certainly Boddington would be a likely customer for sugar landed and further processed in or near the Port of Liverpool. However, back in 2008, Ron writing about sugar in London wrote....
There were two main manufacturers, Garton and Martineau.
and also in a piece on WWI sugar, both appeared in tabulations, so I think Garton was the manufacturer on this occasion.

I've lost count of the number of people I've met who have dived to the wreck of the Thistlegorm, even one of my son's in-law.
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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:52 pm

Granted. I concluded Garton was a "typo", but if so, he's very consistent with his keyboard error!

I still see it as an unlikely coincidence. Web search "Garston sugar refinery" and then "Garton sugar", loads of stuff for Garston and for Garton ... Blast! Manbre & Garton Ltd, sugar refiners, Garton Hill & Co, sugar refiners, Garton Sons & Co Sugar Works ... I think this needs a bit of a sit down!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:26 pm

... After a bit of a sit down: Is it just me having a problem with Garton and Garston?

It's Garton down in London, including the elusive "Garton BS". But up here there is the Garston sugar refinery, just across the Mersey from the Ship Canal entrance (opened in the 1880s; the other end within a mile of Strangeways and the Boddington's brewery).

What was actually written on those Boddington's log books?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by Eric » Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:50 pm

There were a great many sugar refineries in those times, the more obvious being located in London Greenock, Liverpool and Bristol.

I think you should stick with Garton if no typographical error in you latest post. I've read that Ron Pattinson does not spell check his scripts before posting, but here are other reasons to remove Garston.
BOSTOCK, William ... Large explosion at the Garston Sugar Refinery, Liverpool, on 30 Oct 1894, when 3 men were killed. William Bostock, the owner, died the following February. He had joined in a search for a missing man on the morning after the accident and helped dig through the rubble. When the body was found it was in a dreadful state. A traumatic experience for him no doubt.
Garston Sugar Refinery was also said to be the source of brewing sugar with arsenic in the 1900 English Beer Poisoning.
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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:53 am

Eric wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:38 pm
Noticed that in your link above Ron has written Garton, not Garston as in your previous quote from him. ...
The "previous quote" was taken from "Strong! Vol.2" and does indeed say "Garton" not Garston". Must have been my slipup as I won't knowingly misquote (hence the "sic" against his typo in the following word). It was a Barclay Perkins beer (London) so no argument really.

As for Garton or Garston at Boddington's, I've contacted Edd Mather (a Northerner!) via his Blog to see what he knows.

Ron has replied to another of my comments on a post of his: That of Invert Sugar being once graded (1 to 3) on purification, not colour. Nice of him to find the time! (He's judging at a beer comp in Brazil at this moment!).

I did taste a smidge of Ragus No.2 and it was noticeably "caramelised" in taste (like my home-made attempt) but difficult to detect any "subtleties" because of the large quantity (20%) of glucose filler. Encouraging for my home-made invert sugar attempts, but not for my 1896 Rose AK attempt while I still believe that back then "No.2" referred to "purity" not "colour" (from caramelising). But I really need to do a side-by-side taste test of my "Invert" against the Ragus samples (dissolving the samples first?).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:15 pm

Edd replied: He also selects "Garton", not "Garston", but admits he lost all his Boddington's records and was relying on memory. No-one is willing to give me a way out of this "hiccup" :-({|=
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by Eric » Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:09 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:15 pm
Edd replied: He also selects "Garton", not "Garston", but admits he lost all his Boddington's records and was relying on memory. No-one is willing to give me a way out of this "hiccup" :-({|=
I'd use # 2 Invert by Ragus.
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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:21 am

Eric wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:09 pm
... I'd use # 2 Invert by Ragus.
Arrggg! Don't say that now! I've just spent a week or more coming to terms with this suggestion of yours (PM):
Paul, don't waste your time and heat to darken your invert, buy a tin of Black Treacle or some molasses and add it a little at a time when you see your sugars changing to a darker colour.
... and really pi***** off Ron Pattinson along the way (who's trying to enjoy a "holiday" in Brazil!). (Doesn't take much to needle him though).

I'm questioning loads of my "assumptions" about invert Sugar. Like where did this idea that Invert Sugar is (solely) coloured with caramelisation come from? Why am I baking Golden Syrup to get "No.2" and "No.3" Invert Sugars?

Even, why do I think Ragus "caramelise" their Invert Sugars anyway?

I know you are not keen on spending time creating Invert Sugar to destroy a good part of it by then caramelising it; 'cos you told me so!

Give me a bit of time to stew on this. I'm blindly following kookie ideas that circulate through the brewing community, which are often complete boll**** and don't make much noticeable difference anyway



I'm really enjoying the "1896 Rose AK" BTW but wonder at how much that has to do with the carefully home-made "No.2 Invert"; probably nothing? It's perhaps a good job I'm enjoying it ... I've nearly 60 litres of the stuff.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by Eric » Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:54 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:21 am
Eric wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:09 pm
... I'd use # 2 Invert by Ragus.
Arrggg! Don't say that now! I've just spent a week or more coming to terms with this suggestion of yours (PM):
Paul, don't waste your time and heat to darken your invert, buy a tin of Black Treacle or some molasses and add it a little at a time when you see your sugars changing to a darker colour.
... and really pi***** off Ron Pattinson along the way (who's trying to enjoy a "holiday" in Brazil!). (Doesn't take much to needle him though).

I'm questioning loads of my "assumptions" about invert Sugar. Like where did this idea that Invert Sugar is (solely) coloured with caramelisation come from? Why am I baking Golden Syrup to get "No.2" and "No.3" Invert Sugars?

Even, why do I think Ragus "caramelise" their Invert Sugars anyway?

I know you are not keen on spending time creating Invert Sugar to destroy a good part of it by then caramelising it; 'cos you told me so!

Give me a bit of time to stew on this. I'm blindly following kookie ideas that circulate through the brewing community, which are often complete boll**** and don't make much noticeable difference anyway



I'm really enjoying the "1896 Rose AK" BTW but wonder at how much that has to do with the carefully home-made "No.2 Invert"; probably nothing? It's perhaps a good job I'm enjoying it ... I've nearly 60 litres of the stuff.
I'm sure your 1896 Rose AK is enjoyable. If it's as good as your Barclay Perkins 1804 Porter, which was vastly better than the M&S London Porter brewed by Meantime Brewing Company drank for comparison, it will be a very nice beer.

I have thought to examine Roses Old Brewery records 1895-1898, but previously struggled with brewer's books of that period. The Record Office at Northallerton have previously provided me with information for my great grandfather and may yet combine a search for other family members and a look at those brewing records.

I'm not saying that caramelised invert shouldn't be used to make beer, or that it never was made commercially that way, just struggle to understand making invert, then changing some of it to caramel or whatever the darker product is. Sugar refiners had all matter of various extractions produced during their processes. From what we can find and read, it would appear that the byproducts when refining beet are, put plainly, objectionable. Those from cane sugar would appear to be an array of lusciousness. If this be true, and I have no reason to doubt these opinions, why wouldn't a refiner of cane sugar, having inverted his sucrose, add back selected portions of this range of molasses he had already produced as an alternative to spending more time and energy heating his invert until it became a particular colour?
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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:34 pm

Eric wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:54 pm
... I'm not saying that caramelised invert shouldn't be used to make beer, or that it never was made commercially that way, just struggle to understand making invert, then changing some of it to caramel or whatever the darker product is. ...
I should have been listening more closely to what you were saying. This is the latest stuff from Ragus I've been reading:

Brewing Sugar | Custom Formulations | Ragus - Pure Sugars & Syrups

The relevant bit is in "How is brewing sugar produced?". Never warmer than 70°C. NO caramelisation. NO "Maillard reactions" (only 70°C and "neutralising" only gets pH to 6-6.5 whereas "Maillard reactions" prefer more alkaline conditions). To be honest it surprised me. Ragus are being faithful to the Victorian creation, just adapting for modern manufacturing techniques (plus that flippin' glucose/dextrose "filler").

Perhaps some of the propriety sugars RP mentions (before clumping them together as No.1, etc., invert sugar) in his recipes utilised caramelisation? For now, we don't know. But all that tosh about heating sugar syrups for hours on end (some written by me!) is exactly that ... tosh! Historically speaking of course. There are no doubt "modern" beers that rely on caramelised sugars for flavour. And some of those "propriety sugars" too? Who knows? Does it even matter?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by ARNWD » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:13 pm

Peebee,

Been reading this and your other posts as well reading the links with great interest.

I think Garton is as mentioned in the wiley.com document "Preparation of Invert Sugar in the Brewery" page 23, that you have linked to.

"Mr.Heron had referred to the patent of Charles Garton, which was previous to Dr.Heraptath's, and he thought it was only due to a pioneer in the industry to say that there were patents, dated 1856 and 1859, taken out by Charles Garton, of Bristol, a partner in a brewery firm there, who died some few years ago."

Next an internet search for Charles Garton.

Reading Southamptons Daily Echo website article "Southampton’s master brewer of the 1800s" at https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/198354 ... wer-1800s/ this is written:-

"The Garton family were pioneers of using sugars in brewing and experimented with invert sugar, also called saccharum, taking a patent out in 1859 in Charles’ name."

"When he came to Southampton in the late 1860s, he set up Garton, Hill & Co in partnership with Thomas Hill, an agent for many of the large shipping lines. They built an invert sugar works in the Docks, and a brewery, The Anglo-Bavarian Brewery Co Ltd. "

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by Eric » Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:57 pm

Thanks ARNWD, your submission adds to this saga, uncovering the evolution of beer in Britain.

A detailed description of the Anglo-Bavarian Brewery in Shepton Mallet can be found from page 256 of the second volume of Alfred Barnard's Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland.
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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:40 pm

Thanks for that ... I'll give a better reply when I'm not being rushed off me feet. Hang on ... are those my feet?).

[EDIT: Hey, Eric's answered for me! Good on Eric. =D>
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:03 am

Wow ... my campaign to debunk the lunacy of caramelising invert syrup to get colours (No.1, No,2, etc.) got a serious lift today. I felt like an isolated voice amongst all the twaddle about heating inverted syrup for hours on end. "Isolated"? Well read this post (especially the last paragraph) from way back in 2011:
Graham wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:47 pm
Brewer's Invert sugar is made from raw, unrefined cane sugar; so is Muscovado sugar - it is made from the same stuff.

Tesco's Muscovado sugar is, or was at one time, 600 EBC, I have had it measured in the past; that is directly equivalent to brewers' invert No. 4. All you have to do is dilute Muscovado with ordinary household cane sugar linearly to match the colour of the brewers' invert that you are targeting. I am 75% certain that Muscovado sugar is already invert; as far as I can ascertain from the web, the acid extraction method inverts the raw sugar. Certainly, Tesco's Muscovado is seriously hygroscopic, which leads me to believe that it is invert. The household sugar obviously will not be invert. You can invert the mixture it by simmering it with acid if you like.

However, the reason for brewers traditionally using invert is partly because raw sugar is cheaper than refined, but mostly because of the draconian Excise rules surrounding sugar in a brewery. Even when I was involved with fledgling breweries in the 80s - 90s, the sugar book and the 'bonded' (and locked) sugar store was the first thing that the Excise man audited. All sugar had to be traceable back to source, and the source had to be a registered brewers' sugar supplier. If white Tate and Lyle was discovered, questions would be asked and threats would be made. It is amazing how paranoid Excise were about sugar, even then, and even though they did their gravity and volume dip on almost every brew.

Anyway, the reason for the diatribe of the previous paragraph is that there really is not any good scientific reason for inverting the sugar - it is a matter of tradition and at one time a matter of cost and convenience.
"Graham" is entirely who you might suspect he was. And if I say there's no point "inverting" the sugar, and certainly no point trying to caramelise it to get the colours, and you don't agree with that conclusion, well ... no point arguing with me though you may have a problem arguing it with Mr Wheeler.
Last edited by PeeBee on Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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