wheat yeast with barley extract ?

[kentronix]

Hi guys, first post here so go easy

I have brewed 4 kit based weissbier batches so far. I am basically after the paulaner style. I wanted to work my way through the kits, learn what causes what flavour and then switch to extract knowing what I am after. Latest batch was a morgans wheatbeer kit with half the brewing sugar replaced with honey. It worked really well, but yes, I have no bananas.

The common issue with all the kits I have tried so far has been the yeast clearly isnt up to the job.

I have now ordered various dme and lme stuff from hopandgrape, along with some hops and proper yeasts to try out.

Anyway, While I am waiting for the stuff to arrive I nipped down to wilkos and bought a couple of cheapo lager kits, just to see what it was like. The first kit (youngs £4.99) is now in my fermenter, I am pretty sure the yeast was no good. It really didnt do much after tipping. I have given it 2 and a half days and decided to disturb the mix and aerate it slightly. The temp was correct and it was very much airated, I use a shower head to fill it up. I blame the budget yeast.
Still nothing. So I figured I would stick the other yeast from the other kit (geordies) lager into it. Fingers crossed.

Anyway, I dont have any non wheat yeast on order and wondered what kind of taste would a barley malt extract give with a decent wheatbeer yeast ? I now you wouldnt get the wheatiness but would you get the esters ? Will the yeast have problems without wheat ?

I know from the previous kits that the banana and clove esters are produced by having the correct and decent yeast but will it still produce these flavours without the wheat ?

The kit cost the same as the yeast so I dont really want to try if I just end up with a bog standard lager. I would rather buy some cheap yeast or reuse some.

cheers and thanks for all the info I have read from this usefull forum so far

[rjb222]

First of your are thinking in the right direction yeast is your problem. You need to look at the kits and get a year and date to know if your kit is any good. I almost all cases he can of concentrated wert is good the yeast could be out of date. I do couple of things to every kit I brew which is seldom now as I have developed my own style of all grain I enjoy. 1). Use a yeast starter here is a link to help you set one up properly. http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html 2). To freshen the wert I tea some grain and this enhances the kit freshens the taste. this will only add a point or maybe two to your SG. so will still need to add a sugar base to bring up your sg.. 3). Use DME instead of corn or other sugar this keeps away from the cidery taste. 4). After cooling the wert to proper pitching temperature stir the hell out of it or use a air pump and a aeration stone. Yeast need oxygen to do their work.5). Use the appropriate amount of yeast nutrient to give the yeast the food they need to do their job. by following these simple steps you will get substantially better results of your first new brew.
I would guess with out having the right information posted by you that the kits are old and the yeast is already tired. On one that is just out of date then you can do a yeast starter the night before brewing using the yeast in the kit and this will give you a large enough population to get a good start. If your kit is a few months out of date throw out he yeast and by fresh yeast and do a yeast starter and pitch that. If you are buying old kits and not being informed by the dealer they are old change dealers.

[kentronix]

cheers for the replies. much appreciated.
I dont really plan on doing more lager as I only really drink wheat beer. I was just tempted while the real stuff was on order and of course the £4.99 price helped

I have lots of muntons wheat dme and some brupaks lme on its way. As well as some brewferm yeast and some WYEAST 3068 Weihenstephan for when I get the rest right.

This is the first batch that I havent done a starter (didnt even rehydrate), wont be doing that again I am pretty certain it was airated enough, the whole broth is foamy before I even pitched.

Paulaner (which is my aim) is actually quite subtle in terms of banana and clove. I also like scheider weisse so would be more than happy with that if it gets to estery.

At present its basically about learning my way to my perfect brews while not wasting a drop on route

So basically the estery flavours are dependant on the yeast and not really effected by the grain. Obviously the wheatyness comes from the wheat.

I think what I will do is wait until after my next wheat batch and then use the same yeast and just add the lager kit without any extra fermentables. That will give me an idea of exactly what it will produce but I wont waste much if its rank.

I forgot to check the sell by date on the kit I used although the one left over is well within date.
[edit]
just found the date, 2010, does it really last that long ??

[rjb222]

With yeast propagation the lag time is greatly reduced. I did a lager and bottled it this weekend and made another the same day got it ready racked the lager into a primary off the yeast bed cleaned the neck of the carboy with rubbing alcohol and dumped the slurry into the new brew I had Krausen on the rise within an hour and full krausen in 22 hours this will give a better ferment. Another way is to build slants from a yeast starter this is when the liquid yeast gets very efficient to use. My brewing partner has a London ale yeast he has been keeping for over a year and has made some very good beer from it he never gets the mother yeast into a brew he always makes a starter and then creates slants then pitches the rest of the starter this yeast still preforms as well as the day he received it and has all the qualities that one looks for with that strain but he is a special type of fellow a lab tech and understands and has available the right equipment to propagate. In small quantities.

[macleanb]

As a weissbier expert (well I may only have brewed one , but I've drunk loads! ) I did a fair bit of research. I think there is something in wheat malt which is a pre-cursor to the chemicals that make your clove flavour. BTW watch out for the 3068 yeast - its a humdinger once it gets going - remember the film "The Blob".


http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cg ... 46556.html

[steve_flack]

I think there is something in wheat malt which is a pre-cursor to the chemicals that make your clove flavour.

I think the compound you're refering to is ferulic acid. My understanding is that although it is in wheat, it also exists in barley. The main difference is the yeast. Lager strains and most ale strains don't convert it to 4-vinyl guaiacol (the clove flavour) whereas wheat yeasts are able to do that. Ferulic acid is particularly released if the beer is mashed in at 45C which favours it's production.

EDIT: I see you cited a paper that says all what I just said....bugger.

[macleanb]

EDIT: I see you cited a paper that says all what I just said....bugger.

Yeah - but I see you actually read it and understood it - double bugger! I kinda got the drift that wheat contained a lot more and therefore helped the clove thang going on....

[mysterio]

My understanding is that although it is in wheat, it also exists in barley.

This is true, i've said more than once on this forum that it only exists in wheat, this is a myth however. Barley malt has a lower concentration of phenol carbonic acids than wheat malt but the absolute amount is enough for development of phenols in the finished beer, apparently.

[Aleman]

Another key to a good wheat beer is to under pitch as stressing the yeast during the initial phase of fermentation helps to develop the precursors.

The German fermentation schedule for weissbiers is that the pitching temp and the final temp should equal 30, so pitch at 12C and let it rise gradually to 18C and finish fermenting at 18C . . . again stressing the yeast in the initial phase, also the balance between the clove and Banana flavours is determined by the fermentation temp the warmer you go the less clove and more banana you get.

And yes . . . watch out for that yeast its a sneaky one

[rjb222]

Another key to a good wheat beer is to under pitch as stressing the yeast during the initial phase of fermentation helps to develop the precursors.

The German fermentation schedule for weissbiers is that the pitching temp and the final temp should equal 30, so pitch at 12C and let it rise gradually to 18C and finish fermenting at 18C . . . again stressing the yeast in the initial phase, also the balance between the clove and Banana flavours is determined by the fermentation temp the warmer you go the less clove and more banana you get.

And yes . . . watch out for that yeast its a sneaky one

I have done this with other beers not having brewed a wheat beer yet.(not one of my favorites) I have had limited success stressing yeast to develop a taste profile and stressed some yeast that brewed well lets just say not good results. Is there formula or schedule to use when practicing this to develop what one is looking for?

[Aleman]

I have had limited success stressing yeast to develop a taste profile and stressed some yeast that brewed well lets just say not good results. Is there formula or schedule to use when practicing this to develop what one is looking for?

Stressing yeast in general is bad and will rarely produce good results so should be avoided. Wheat beers are the one example where introducing a sub optimal condition for growth actually improves the result. As far as formula go the German 30 rule is about it. I tend to pitch around 20% less yeast than called for by the Mr Malty Pitching Rate calculator which gives me the flavour profile I desire in my wheat beers.

[rjb222]

I will look in different directions then. I was wanting a fruiter ester quality when brewing a strong ale I used both Windsor and Nottingham yeasts and did not get what I was looking for and so I pitched half brew quantities and the results were poor.

[mysterio]

Do you oxygenate your wheat beer wort as normal Aleman?