Flaked oats and torrified wheat in extract recipes?

[NeilE1970]

I have a couple of recipes which call for torrified wheat. However it was my belief that this adjunct needs to be mashed.

But in the two books by Tess and Mark Szamatulski (Clone brews and Beer Captured) they have numerous recipes which use it but only steep it. If it needs to be mashed why have it in these recipes which are extract recipes and not mashed.

I have also seen in these books the use of flaked maize and flaked oats.

Why would you have these in extract recipes if they need to be mashed?
Any thoughts?

Pictures from the book beer captured.

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[NeilE1970]

No idea why this didn’t attach

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[Eric]

As you advise, neither torrified wheat or flaked oats can self-convert to sugars in the mash and therefore require enzymes from another source for that process. I suppose they might provide some minor flavours, but are likely to increase haze more than any possible advantage.

[NeilE1970]

Thanks Eric, I didn’t think they would do anything . Thanks for the affirmation. Waste of time and money from my point of view in a non mash brew.
Somewhat irritating from a learners point of view I’d say. ..making you think that they’re actually fulfilling a purpose.

[NeilE1970]

As you advise, neither torrified wheat or flaked oats can self-convert to sugars in the mash and therefore require enzymes from another source for that process. I suppose they might provide some minor flavours, but are likely to increase haze more than any possible advantage.

Another thing Eric, wouldn’t the inclusion of Irish moss remove any starches that might improve body or haze?

[Eric]

Yes indeed, but copper fining's primary function is to drop out break products produced during the boil. Starches should not be allowed to get into the boiler, which can be confirmed by an iodine test towards the end of a mash.

Optimum performance of copper finings occurs at pH 5.2, which is one reason why I questioned the use of sodium bicarbonate in you query on water treatment.

[NeilE1970]

Would Irish moss/ copper finings remove proteins released by flaked oats in a non mashed boil if they had only been steeped. I’m guessing yes.
Sorry if these are obvious questions Eric.

[Eric]

Proteins (nitrogen) in beer is a wide ranging topic, for which I'm not competent to fully advise. Some are proteins essential, others advantageous and those that are unwanted if you wish for a clear beer.

FAN, free amino nitrogen, is an essential for healthy yeast and good fermentation. They are in the mash formed from proteins, with calcium as the catalyst.

Soluble nitrogens are desirable for mouth-feel and heading, but some will cause chill haze. Chilling after the boil and again after fermentation can minimise chill haze.

Insoluble proteins will clump during a boil and copper finings help them come together and deposit.

My main concern would be for the significantly more amount of starch in those grains that wouldn't convert to sugar because the were no enzymes present. Starch is insoluble while the sugars, into which they can be converted in the right conditions, are all soluble and mostly fermentable.

[NeilE1970]

Thanks for that comprehensive explanation Eric, I now see the significance of your profile picture!
So much to learn about.
I’m thinking mini mashes are the way to go in order to get some way closer to a full mash benefit rather than just steeping.
What would be a minimum length of time for a mini mash,1 hour or could it be done in 30-45mins . I normally steep for 30 mins. Getting up at 3am to hopefully finish by 7.
This brings another question…if I do a mini mash can my normal adjuncts be put in there too and would they provide the same yield or would that go up because enzymes are present? My usual adjuncts would be carapils, crystal malts (Munich 60L , 10L)?

Thanks again mate and I very much appreciate your time and knowledge.
I’ve just had a look at the pictures I included, they are saying 90 mins, would that be a minimum.

How would it be if I set up a mini mash the previous night around 10pm and let it sit till the next morning at 3am, would that work without over doing it?

[Eric]

Rookie and Trefoyl are but two members here who can help you more than I. They live on your side of the pond and both have experience of the matters that presently concern you and American malts, which can have more enzymes and therefore can covert more adjunct more quickly than British equivalents. Also several here happily mash overnight, I don't.

I mash for 90 minutes with any unmalted adjunct. Followed by fly sparging usually results in >90% extraction. Attempts to reduce the times for those processes will frequently result in lower extraction. It is possible that American malts may not be influenced to the same degree and potentially convert more adjunct.

Crystal malts, including carapils, are already converted and don't need base malts for that process, but who would be brave enough to predict their influence will be nil if included in a mash?

I'm sure a partial mash can be beneficial for many reasons.

[NeilE1970]

Thanks yet again Eric.
I have been doing a bit of research and it seems that an overnight mash is ok.
I do have one last question which I can’t seem to find anything on, instead of doing an overnight mash , what if the mash is done the night before and it’s completely done, ie the mash is completed , grains sparged and removed and the liquor made ready for the next step but actually left overnight and let cool for , in my case, say 5 hours. Would the cooling have any detrimental effect . Personally I can’t see anything that could go bad but then again I’m no expert. This procedure would save me time the next morning for definite.

[Eric]

I would think the main drawback to any shortcut would be a reduced shelf-life. However, there are other causes of shorter life with neither necessarily problematic if the beer is drank within a short period.

When I moved from extract to all grain, the difference was a revelation, but that was a long time ago and so is possible the difference today might not be so great. Also there is, as your questions demonstrate, much more to learn for all grain, but the results can be better beer than some commercial breweries make at their best.

After leaving boiled wort to cool overnight, I've since brewed in a single session, although some lasted into the next morning. Read what you can, learn what you can, do what you can and you will produce many all grain beers.

[MashBag]

Thanks yet again Eric.
I have been doing a bit of research and it seems that an overnight mash is ok.
I do have one last question which I can’t seem to find anything on, instead of doing an overnight mash , what if the mash is done the night before and it’s completely done, ie the mash is completed , grains sparged and removed and the liquor made ready for the next step but actually left overnight and let cool for , in my case, say 5 hours. Would the cooling have any detrimental effect . Personally I can’t see anything that could go bad but then again I’m no expert. This procedure would save me time the next morning for definite.

Neil,

Let me dive in here, 'cos I overnight mash and overnight chill most of the time.

Overnight mash generally refers to a mash temperature which is maintained for 6+ hours and the boiling is the next step, the following morning.

I overnight mash, but leave the grain unheated for several hours, then the program starts a 60mins mash early morning. Ready for me to boil.

Never thought of overnight mash and cool. I do believe you would need mash and a separate "mash out" step (72c/20m) before cooling, to check the enzymes. Aka sterilise.

Are you then planning to boil in the morning? Or is this raw. I only ask because I have tried similar.

Incidentally I do not believe irish moss will work without a few minutes boil.

[NeilE1970]

Wow…I’m really surprised that leaving the mash for just a few hours longer can reduce the shelf life of the finished product…that is an eye opener! Point taken though, thank you.
I do believe that the results of AG are better than using extract, absolutely without doubt , my problem is lack of time. I am burning the candle at both ends many days so any time saved is a wonderful thing!
Coming back to partial mashing….going by the instruction of the book where the pictures are from it says the amount of water to be used is 1.25 l of water for each lb (454g) of grain used. Now I have seen different amounts of water for this but my question is ..does this ‘each pound’ include all the grains to be included or just the base grain?
Eg if I were to partial mash

750g of Maris Otter
250g of Caramel Munich 60L
200g of carapils
200g torrified wheat
50g black malt

Does the water calculation include all grains or just the Maris Otter? I’m thinking it’s everything (otherwise it would probably end up quite dry)but I just want to make sure. I do understand that you do need a certain amount of base malt for the mash to work…is the minimum required base malt equal to the weight of the other grains ..give or take 100g or so? So in the above the amount of maris otter is about right? Maris otter 750g—others 700g although if I wanted I could mash more maris otter as long as the amount didn’t go below the minimum required. I’m sure there are water calculators available for this too, if you could recommend one. Water required for the above example about 1500g grain so about 3.5-3.75 l of water?

Yesterday we were out picking up new chicks from a fairly local garden center and they had brewing supplies, not many but some, they did have a 10lb bag of maris otter….hence me using this in the above example. Normally I have to buy everything in and pay for postage (another reason for not doing AG)so this is quite a good find for me. So partial mashes could be on the cards in the very near future.

Thanks yet again for your time and knowledge Eric, very much appreciated Sir.
Have an enjoyable weekend. rain here!

[NeilE1970]

Thanks yet again Eric.
I have been doing a bit of research and it seems that an overnight mash is ok.
I do have one last question which I can’t seem to find anything on, instead of doing an overnight mash , what if the mash is done the night before and it’s completely done, ie the mash is completed , grains sparged and removed and the liquor made ready for the next step but actually left overnight and let cool for , in my case, say 5 hours. Would the cooling have any detrimental effect . Personally I can’t see anything that could go bad but then again I’m no expert. This procedure would save me time the next morning for definite.

Neil,

Let me dive in here, 'cos I overnight mash and overnight chill most of the time.

Overnight mash generally refers to a mash temperature which is maintained for 6+ hours and the boiling is the next step, the following morning.

I overnight mash, but leave the grain unheated for several hours, then the program starts a 60mins mash early morning. Ready for me to boil.

Never thought of overnight mash and cool. I do believe you would need mash and a separate "mash out" step (72c/20m) before cooling, to check the enzymes. Aka sterilise.

Are you then planning to boil in the morning? Or is this raw. I only ask because I have tried similar.

Incidentally I do not believe irish moss will work without a few minutes boil.

Hey up mate,
My thinking was this…
Normally i do a steep first off. Once that’s done I put in my extract and get going. But to save myself the time in the morning I was considering doing the steep the night before and doing everything as I usually do but stop at the point where I put in the extract. Cover the pot and leave it till next morning at about 3am (5 hours left to sit-alternatively I could put it int oven (I just saw this somewhere)on low and let it sit there)I’ve actually just checked my oven and it only goes down to 170F but as the mash /steep will be completed it would just be keeping warm for 5hrs
Then I wondered about doing the partial mash… do the mash 60-90 mins whatever , remove grains and let the retrieved wort sit for 5 hours. Initially I would have just let this sit and it would obviously have cooled but sitting in the oven at 170F/ 76C would probably best eh.
Then next morning get the wort out and continue as normal…add necessary water , add remaining extracts bring to boil etc etc.

To the unknowledgeable this would probably sound ok, but as I’ve said before I’m no expert. Does it seem ok?

Enjoy the weekend, hope you have good weather over there.