No Chill Cubes

[jonnyt]

Its just that I've read on multiple forums that Pale Ale Malt boiled for 90 minutes doesn't have any DMS issues whether chilled or no chill.

I'm absolutely certain that none of my brews have tasted of DMS.

The article you posted did suggest that is the case as long as you allow the boil to evaporate, I leave the lid off entirely.

[Goulders]

@ChuckE, I don't think hop isomerisation is an issue as long as you don't transfer hops to the cube. Brewmate has a no-chill tick box for when hops are transferred (so I believe).

[potatoes]

I know I got DMS in my beer, the only place I could have gotten it from was from chilling in the FV.

Just asking an obvious question, which I dont think you have answered but I am interested in the discussion. Did you use any lager type malt in the brew that got DMS and not in the other 3 which didn't?

[ChuckE]

@ChuckE, I don't think hop isomerisation is an issue as long as you don't transfer hops to the cube. Brewmate has a no-chill tick box for when hops are transferred (so I believe).

For the most part, yes. In beers that have sharp, precise hop flavors- I've found the hop flavors to be a rounded.

I no chill almost all my brews. When I do an IPA, I bust out the IC.

Just my experience-

[Spud395]

I know I got DMS in my beer, the only place I could have gotten it from was from chilling in the FV.

Just asking an obvious question, which I dont think you have answered but I am interested in the discussion. Did you use any lager type malt in the brew that got DMS and not in the other 3 which didn't?

I didnt potatoes, pale ale malt as a base malt.

A little more backround.
I couldnt identify the rank off flavour so I brought it to a friend of mine, a pro brewer who has the best pallette I've ever came across.
She took a sniff and said DMS, then tasted and confirmed it.
I hadnt really thought of DMS as I thought a 60 minute uncovered vigorous boil got rid of all DMS.

I done some reading around and it seems that it's quiet common if you dont chill quick enough.
TThis is where I got confused because I was aware of this method, I then came to the conclusion it was because I used the bigger FV and not a cube.
Its not an issue for me as I said I now pump from a rainwater barrel to an IC to avoid excessive water usage.

Its just that I've read on multiple forums that Pale Ale Malt boiled for 90 minutes doesn't have any DMS issues whether chilled or no chill.

I'm absolutely certain that none of my brews have tasted of DMS.

The article you posted did suggest that is the case as long as you allow the boil to evaporate, I leave the lid off entirely.

It also suggests you chill quickly or DMS can be formed.
I'm not interested in further discussion as to whether I got DMS in my brew or not, I know I did, here's a little snippit you might enjoy

"After you stop boiling, DMS is still being produced, but it can't escape as vapor. If your wort sits hot for a long time, it builds up DMS. DMS is often described as a “butterscotch” or “buttery” flavor, but we could describe it as "homebrew" flavor. If you hand someone a glass of beer without telling them what it is, they taste it and say, "you made this yourself, didn't you?" then you probably have a DMS problem. This is a pity, because it's an easy off-flavor to avoid.

If you cool your wort rapidly, there will be little time for DMS to build up. Below a few parts per million, it is not detectable by human taste buds."

[ChuckE]

Butter or butterscotch flavors could be from diacetyl.

FWIW, I've no-chilled 46 batches without DMS. Thus far, nary a hint of DMS. YMMV-

[Spud395]

Butter or butterscotch flavors could be from diacetyl.

FWIW, I've no-chilled 46 batches without DMS. Thus far, nary a hint of DMS. YMMV-

Thats why I'm wondering if it's the bigger vessel I used?

Yeah I would have said butter was diacetyl as well, I just used a random internet quote to show jonny there was a lot of different opnions out there.
Mine is more corn/cabbage.
It dosnt matter really, I'm happy with the way I'm doing things now and can continue into the "dry" season this year

[ChuckE]

Thats why I'm wondering if it's the bigger vessel I used?

Yeah I would have said butter was diacetyl as well, I just used a random internet quote to show jonny there was a lot of different opnions out there.
Mine is more corn/cabbage.
It dosnt matter really, I'm happy with the way I'm doing things now and can continue into the "dry" season this year

Corn/cabbage, huh? Yeah, that's gotta be DMS.

I'm no expert, but it doesn't seem like the size/configuration of the vessel would render extra DMS. If DMS is in the vapor, it would condense on the top/sides and fall back into the wort regardless.

As I understand it, a certain amount of malt will only render a certain amount of DMS. If it's boiled off, that's it... regardless of how the hot wort is handled. For whatever reason, all the DMS wasn't boiled off.

Was it a weak boil? This is a long shot, but is it possible that the pale malt/barley was organic or some older strain of unmodified barley which would require a longer boil?

[Spud395]

It was a slightly unusual pale malt, pearle I believe is the variety of barley.
Again though I had 25KG of the malt and it was only 1 brew effected.
I suppose it may have been a combination of events although I dont have any note of the boil being weak

[Bribie]

I've done over 300 brews now, all no chilled in cubes, and never a DMS problem. However as a precaution, when using Euro malts such as Weyermann, I do a 90 min boil.

[Jocky]

Good thread.

Your posts about your experiences are appreciated spud - gives us all a good indication of how to go about thinking when something goes wrong.

[jonnyt]

Got my cube today so next brew will be on shortly and wait in the cube until I have space in my fermenting cupboard (plastic container filled with water with aquarium heater).

Quick question what do you do with late hops such as flameout or 10m boil?

[ChuckE]

Got my cube today so next brew will be on shortly and wait in the cube until I have space in my fermenting cupboard (plastic container filled with water with aquarium heater).

Quick question what do you do with late hops such as flameout or 10m boil?

Below is a chart created by someone else. Some brewers report excellent results with it. I haven't been able to perfect late hop additions in NC.

[jonnyt]

On my last beer I made myself a hop sock and put all the late hops in it.
The recipe called for 20g for 10 minutes. I gave them 10mins boil they left a further 10 then removed the sock. At that point I whirlpooled and left another 10m's. The sock with the hops was then removed.
I'm hoping that gives me something close to a 'chill' outcome as otherwise I'm pretty sure I'd lose Aroma and Flavour to extra bitter hence my question.

[Bribie]

WRT late hop additions:

I've posted this somewhere already, but when I no chill, first I run off a litre of wort out of the kettle to "clear the throat" of the system. I collect this in a sterile Lab bottle (Schott bottle) and put to one side. Then the runnings are clear and I fill the cube. Anything left in the kettle I collect in more Schott bottles and leave them to settle out.

Next day, I can usually count on salvaging around a litre and a half of clear wort, in addition to the cube full.

Now, I boil the 10 minute hop addition in this wort, then add any flame-out addition, strain the wort and cool it rapidly and add to the fermenter with the cube. So the late hop additions "leapfrog" the cube stage and you get the full aroma and flavour as desired.

To put it another way, I normally only use the bittering hops in the main boil.

EDIT: DMS is generally described as a vegetable flavour that can taste like canned corn, or cabbage. Diacetyl is the Butterscotch flavour. It's not related to boiling or cooling issues, it comes from fermentation and some yeasts throw more Diacetyl than others. A low level is acceptable and indeed part of the profile of some UK ales, IIRC Wychwood aim for some D. when they are producing their Brakspear beers using the double drop method.
I actually aim for a bit of D. when I am using Wyeast 1768 and deliberately run the fermentation through quickly - I like a bit in red ale.