clearing beer

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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Eric
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Re: clearing beer

Post by Eric » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:13 pm

IPA wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:39 am
One of our American contributers, I think it was Laripu, said.
One thing Europeans must remember is that Americans do not like beer that tastes like beer.
Whoever it was, I would agree that statement generally applies.

I enjoy being in France and in most earlier visits, good beer could be found, but last time was sadly disappointing. Last year our daughter and family were there up until they dashed home to avoid quarantine when they brought me some beer from near Cahors. It tasted like my earliest homebrew, although it may have had the potential to never clear. One bottle burst on the journey, but we,ll put that down to the dash, but recently a recently formed local brewery annouced on facebook they had recruited a French brewer. I wondered if that was a possible reason for some of their new beers being called "Hazy Shade of ......" or whether they believed such named beers would have appeal, or they can't deal with the water at their new brewery. I'm not saying this to condemn them, just that clear beer is as easy to make as cloudy is, once you know how.

Guy, you know the merit of opinion that water with >100 ppm calcium with attendant alkalinity doesn't make good beer and CRS makes it worse again. Knowing how to treat your water, your beers clear at the rate of flocculation of your chosen yeast, but for the newcomer is dependent upon the order they read advice and which they believe.

That's a fine beer Doreblade, even with incompatible nails. The colour, I assume from crystal malt, reminded my of John Palmer's early writings when I was particularly attracted by his nomograph.

Image

That didn't match the data from my brewing, but if the colour shift from a teaspoon of black malt was equivalent to that by a handful of crystal malt, why would mash pH shift also be equal?

I've written too much and for my sins my computer died this morning. It has a lot of data which I'm hoping might be recovered.
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Re: clearing beer

Post by Doreblade » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pm

Eric - used the Graham Wheeler recipe for it. Bit of crystal and a tiny bit of black malt.

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An Ankoù
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Re: clearing beer

Post by An Ankoù » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:28 pm

Ok. So calcium is the common denominator here, but in what form? I have very soft water and generally add some calcium sulphate and perhaps half as much calcium chloride if I'm making a bitter or pale ale. I don't add anything if I'm making a dark ale, and I add some acidulated malt if I'm making a lager/Pilsner. A number of objectives: mouthfeel with the chloride, giving a "harsher edge" to bitters with the sulphate, and just getting within pH range with the darker malts and acidulated malt. I don't get how this affects clearing and there are a number of calcium salts I could add, all of which would affect the flavour of the beer differently. What about another essential element, magnesium? There's not a lot said about the relationship between magnesium and yeast health. But, I have to add, while I don't have a general problem with beers clearing, occasionally a beer might not drop bright on chilling, or take ages to come good in the bottle.
I stopped using finings as it seemed to loosen the yeast deposit in the bottle making it less likely to pour bright.

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Eric
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Re: clearing beer

Post by Eric » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:08 pm

Graham's a great miss, but he left a good legacy on this forum. It's a great pity his last book never reached the publisher. His recipes were always practical and produced satisfying beers, but it was his accumulated knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject that set him ahead of the rest of the field.

Hi An Ankoù, yes calcium is the key.The problem here is that there is a belief that calcium salts give a minerally taste to a beer. 50 ppm calcium is the minimum necessary, but the accepted level of calcium for heathy brewing is beyween 100 and 200 ppm. Sulphate will make a drier beer while chloride will improve a beers depth and body while softening the sensations on the palate.

For pale beers, begin with 150 ppm calcium in all water and I will only rarely make a pale beer with less than 100 ppm chloride. For a bitter beer or dry pale ale, sulphate will be in the majority and for a sweeter pale ale the chloride will be the larger amount. For Strong pale ales the calcium level can be 200 ppm or slightly more. Alkalinity should be less than 40 ppm and frequently preferably 20 ppm depending upon the recipe.

For darker beers I will again have about 150 ppm calcium, but there is no advantage by adding sulphate to the water as this will oftem remove all smoothness from otherwise lovely roasted malt flavours. Dark beers mostly require a quantity of alkalinity in the mash to avoid pH being too low and no requirement acidulated malt.

Magnesium is essential for yeast health as is zinc. Calcium is mostly needed for cell walls and good flocculation.

Malt provides a massive amount of magnesium, which will become a substitute for calcium if it isn't present in sufficient quantity. As magnesium is more soluble than calcium, this results in undesirable components to produce hazes in finished beer that would otherwise deposit with calcium in the mash or kettle. Magnesiun has a lower taste threshold than calcium, but can enhance beer flavours in some styles.

Lagers made with low levels of calcium require lagering at low temperature until hazes deposit.

Ales will present chill haze if served at temperature much lower than cellar.
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An Ankoù
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Re: clearing beer

Post by An Ankoù » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:30 pm

Thank you Eric. I had never looked at calcium this way, only using the salts to reduce pH. I'll look into matter- starting with this thread.
As for Graham Wheeler, his earlier books are excellent. His book with Roger Protz is good and I have two or three of his earlier titles. I had no idea there was an unpublished work and I wonder what it might have contained and whether it will ever see the light of day.

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Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:43 pm

Terrific post Eric, there cannot be too much of this kind of information and that will be integrated into some of my brews. I wonder who holds the copyright to Grahams unpublished book, there must be appetite enough for somebody to take this to print.

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Re: clearing beer

Post by Eric » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:48 pm

pH is important, but the right pH is a result of the right parameters, not the wrong perameters corrected by acid or base additions. When the first electronic pH meter was built, wort pH was measured in a London brewery. The result was 5.4, or thereabout, and is recorded bt the Institute of Brewing, done during the period of Prohibition in USA.

I asked Graham to have me proof read his last book, a member here managed to get one chapter, but Graham said he had a previous recipe book stolen. I have a recipe book that is in Graham's style, but it is in the name of another. I contacted Graham's brother after his death, but got no reply and gave up wodering if Graham's wish might have been that it would not be published, but I can't think why that might have been.

We never met, although that was once arranged. We were in contact until shortly before his death, he was full of life despite suffering several strokes as others can confirm. He was knowledgeable on more subjects than just beer and brewing.
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Re: clearing beer

Post by An Ankoù » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:44 am

Another great loss is Roger Protz' Real Ale Almanac 6th Edition. I remember paying CAMRA up front for a copy of the book as soon as it was printed, only for it to be delayed for month after month and finally my cheque was returned with a brief note that the title would no longer be published. A great shame. It's interesting to see the difference between the description of some of the beers in the first edition and the fifth edition. I found there was often enough information in Protz to have a first (range finding) attempt at formulating a recipe. But this has nothing to do with clearing beer so I'll shut up now.
@Eric : You say GW left a good legacy on this forum. I've searched both the members list and the forum for the string "Graham Wheeler", but, while I can find 7 pages of references to him by other members, I haven't found anything I recognise as his. Did he use a pseudonym?

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Re: clearing beer

Post by orlando » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:42 am

Look in the tools section Graham's Beer Engine and water treatment calculator are major contributions (under JBK Links). He also replied to many posts so will be interesting to know what has happened to them.
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Re: clearing beer

Post by Hanglow » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:50 am

Unfortunately GDPR makes his username unsearchable I think. When it was brought in you had to actively accept the new terms, as his account by then was inactive, it was disabled.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5970&hilit=Graham

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Re: clearing beer

Post by f00b4r » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:42 pm

Yes GDPR is a pain, especially since things have been erred on the side of caution here. If you delve into the older threads in the various sections and the longer or more interesting threads there is a wealth of information, including info from Graham, Ron P and a whole bunch of other contributors that have backgrounds in brewing or are very knowledgable from years of research/brewing. A lot are still around and can be prompted into commenting by interesting questions, whilst others like Eric have the patience of a saint, answering/helping with similar problems for over a decade.

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Re: clearing beer

Post by ElthamBrewer » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 pm

[quote=IPA post_id=856569 time=1617980155 user_id=9129]
Anyone can make cloudy beer,I made loads when I started 50 years ago, now it gives me extreme pleasure to brew beer that can be poured from a bottle to the last drop with no trace of sediment in the glass. Something I have yet to find in a commercial brewery's beer.
[/quote]

I suppose it's a bit late to come back on this post, but I'll bite. How does one make "beer that can be poured from a bottle to the last drop with no trace of sediment in the glass". I'm assuming this is a reference to force-carbonation in the bottle using CO2 rather than priming with sugar?

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Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:25 pm

ElthamBrewer wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:53 pm
IPA wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:55 pm
Anyone can make cloudy beer,I made loads when I started 50 years ago, now it gives me extreme pleasure to brew beer that can be poured from a bottle to the last drop with no trace of sediment in the glass. Something I have yet to find in a commercial brewery's beer.
I suppose it's a bit late to come back on this post, but I'll bite. How does one make "beer that can be poured from a bottle to the last drop with no trace of sediment in the glass". I'm assuming this is a reference to force-carbonation in the bottle using CO2 rather than priming with sugar?
I have actually made beer like this, more by accident than design in my case, it is carbonated quite low which is fine for me for the style and there is a tiny amount of sediment but it sticks to the bottom to the last drop. I guess it could be made such by design.

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Re: clearing beer

Post by ElthamBrewer » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:33 pm

True. It’d be lovely to be able to do it by design. I think many of my kegged bears are clear more because of having lots of conditioning time rather than my brilliant brewing process.

My father thinks the yeast in home brew gives him gout (doesn’t affect me, yet!) so having something that at least appears to minimise sediment would be useful.


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Re: clearing beer

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:39 pm

Yeast is rich in purines, the cause of gout and gout flare ups. Does your father take anything for his gout? I take 200mg Allopurinol each day and make sure my beer is crystal clear before drinking it in any quantity. No gout flare ups for years!

The worst thing about gout is having to avoid asparagus--oh, the trials of life!

Guy

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