Ro or tap

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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guypettigrew
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:14 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:04 pm
Ah. I've got crs but not ams. I'll give them a call tomorrow! Tomorrow I'll post my reviewed recipe if you'd be able to take a look that'd be great and confirm water additions. I'm working the GW calcs also but want to cross ref with what you get to make sure I'm using it properly. Brewing Friday 🤞. I guess I don't need Camden tablet addition? I've always just added it...
Same thing. Just with different names! Add your CRS to your tap water as the very first thing you do.

Guy

Edit. I don't know exactly how your brewing process will work, BB. But you'll need 2.5ml of CRS for every 21L of water. So if you're going to use more water to sparge then you'll need to increase the amount of CRS accordingly. If you don't have a syringe to measure this small amount, then 2.5ml is a half a teaspoonful. Stir it well after adding it.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:16 pm

CRS and AMS are the same thing. All that has happened as I understand it is a name change.
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Brown beer
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:24 pm

Great. Thanks both. I'll post recipe tomorrow morning..was getting confused. I've got DLS not crs or ams! I'm getting there.... Slowly! 😁

guypettigrew
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:14 am

Brown beer wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:24 pm
Great. Thanks both. I'll post recipe tomorrow morning..was getting confused. I've got DLS not crs or ams! I'm getting there.... Slowly! 😁
Then you need CRS or AMS! My suggested salt values may change now AMS is going to be used--should have thought of it first off. I'll re-work the numbers in a bit and post again.

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:59 am

Hi BB

Revised figures! To get your water to the right sort of figure of 15-20ppm alkalinity you'll need to add 0.07ml AMS to every litre of raw water you're planning to use. If you're planning to start with 30 litres to end up with 21 litres of wort you'll need to add 2.1ml AMS to the 30 litres.

Using AMS changes the sulphate and chloride levels in the water. The salts you'll need are; calcium sulphate 9.7g, calcium chloride 4.4g, magnesium sulphate 2.5g, sodium chloride 1.2g. As mentioned before, you need to bump up the calcium level in your mash. I'd be tempted to stir all the salts into the dry grain before beginning the mash, to be honest.

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:08 am

I've changed the recipe a bit now (Sorry PeeBee!) as below. I use a traditional BIAB setup with propane burner, kettle and drawstring bag, no sparge and immersion chiller.

21L Batch (Total Water Volume calculates to 33.5L -using Brewfather which I've not used before but seems about right vol, normally use BIABABACUS)
75 min Mash at 75C
60 min boil
4.6% (1.046 to 1.011)
6.7EBC
35 IBU

Pale Maris Otter, Crisp (3EBC) 3640g
Caragold, Crisp (12EBC) 440g
Vienna Malt , Crisp (9EBC) 310g

Centennial (10.7%) 12g at 50 mins
Centennial 12g at 35 mins
Cascade (3%) 24g at 20 mins
cascade 24g at 5 mins

Imperial Flagship Yeast

I'll order the CRS in a min. I've ordered all req water additions which should be here tomorrow hopefully.

I can't work out the GW Calculator for CRS use. Carbonate Reduction method part at top. what is my residual alkalinity? Whatever I put in no CRS addition appears at the bottom? I'm going to print off and digest the instructions but if you could advise I appreciate it...

Thanks all!!
James

Sorry - no camden tablet req?

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by WallyBrew » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:45 am

Brown beer wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:08 am
........
I can't work out the GW Calculator for CRS use. Carbonate Reduction method part at top. what is my residual alkalinity? Whatever I put in no CRS addition appears at the bottom? I'm going to print off and digest the instructions but if you could advise I appreciate it...


Enter 38 in the alkalinity box as CaCO3
In the "carbonate reduction method" box check the CRS and the CaCO3 and then enter the alkalinity you want to achieve in the residual alkalinity box

If you enter 20 as your residual alkalinity and your volume is 21 litres it should tell you to add 2.1mL

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:24 am

No Camden tablet required. You could put the water in the boiler to stand overnight to be rid of any chlorine, but from your report chlorine is below measurable amount ("<"). My water has perhaps 4-5 times the chlorine because it has to travel so far (my local reservoir also supplies Birkenhead in England). There is no chance (no point) that they put chloramine in your water.

There's so little in your water you can pretty well ignore "alkalinity", residual or otherwise. You add the acid effectively to only alter the pH (which is very easy because there is no effective alkalinity resisting the change). I've not used acid this way (in the mash), relying on other additions to alter the pH; calcium causes reactions that lowers the pH hence my proposed water treatment uses a lot more acid 'cos it adds a bare minimum in calcium ("New World" style). I'm also using a much lower mash pH 'cos it's for a blonde type beer (about pH5.3, people will even dip to 5.2 which is not normal but you wouldn't think it these days), you don't dip below 5.4 for most "British" ales.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:54 am

How does this look:
Brown Beers Recipe.png
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

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guypettigrew
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:42 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:08 am
21L Batch (Total Water Volume calculates to 33.5L -using Brewfather which I've not used before but seems about right vol, normally use BIABABACUS)
75 min Mash at 75C
You don't really mean that, do you?!

You've probably already worked this out, but you'll need to add 2.4ml AMS to your 33.5 litres of water to get an alkalinity of 15-20ppm.

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:17 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:24 am
… There's so little in your water you can pretty well ignore "alkalinity", …
I've got away with making a statement like that, so far. So to flesh it out a bit and its a good excuse to post a colourful map (ooo; I do like them):

It's okay for me and you ("Brown Beer") to ignore alkalinity, but that might be taken as an inflammatory statement (I have a gift for annoying people too). "Alkalinity" (and "residual alkalinity") is a valuable tool for calculating what needs to be added to water before making additional "tweaks" to get the mash in the right pH range. But for our water we're already skipping straight to the "tweak" stage. "Alkalinity" has two objectives: Firstly to help predict and adjust the outcome of a mash for those that need it, and secondly, to pulp the brains of those that don't need it.

And to see who does and doesn't need it (time to get a colourful map out):
Hard-Water-Map-of-Uk-2019.jpg
From the map you can judge that we really are in the minority (of UK population). It doesn't make the difference between "temporary hardness" (or "carbonate hardness" - primarily responsible for "alkalinity") and "permanent hardness" (calcium and magnesium salts), but it generally follows in the UK that the areas are the same (a figure I saw was 60% of UK users have CaCO3 levels greater than 200ppm). And the fine tweaks can be left up to the numerous calculators. The calculators are not all the same when it comes to pH predicting, I used to use Bru'n Water but its predictions no longer work for me, so I'm trying "Mash Made Easy" which has the added advantage of being able to "tweak" how it predicts pH outcome (which promptly has it leave the "Easy" arena).


<EDIT: Something I whinge about, and here I am doing it myself! "60% of UK users have <hardness as> CaCO3 levels greater than 200ppm". As daft as I am, or should that be "a daft ass I am".>.
Last edited by PeeBee on Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:28 pm

Crisp Maris Otter is more like 6 EBC, Crisp Vienna is more like 7 EBC, and Crisp CaraGold is more like 15 EBC. These appear to be midranges.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:42 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:28 pm
Crisp Maris Otter is more like 6 EBC, Crisp Vienna is more like 7 EBC, and Crisp CaraGold is more like 15 EBC. These appear to be midranges.
I think the descriptions have got lost in the passage of this thread. But "Brown Beer" is using "extra pale" maris otter malt at 3ebc, and the "Vienna" malt really is rated as 9ebc 'cos I've not long received some.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

guypettigrew
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:47 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:59 am
Hi BB

To get your water to the right sort of figure of 15-20ppm alkalinity you'll need to add 0.07ml AMS to every litre of raw water you're planning to use.

Guy
Oh dear, I seem to have got this wrong-no idea how! Checking GW's calculator again you'll need to add 0.1ml/litre of AMS to your raw water to get to an alkalinity of 20ppm. Exactly as wallyBrew says. Where the 0.07 I posted earlier came from is a mystery. And a huge embarrassment.

Hang on, just worked it out!!! The 0.1ml/litre changes to 0.07ml/litre when you select 'dry pale ale' as the target liquor, having entered your raw water composition.

Now I'm confused!

So, can anyone explain what's going on? And which is the correct figure for the AMS addition?

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by WallyBrew » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:49 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:28 pm
Crisp Maris Otter is more like 6 EBC, Crisp Vienna is more like 7 EBC, and Crisp CaraGold is more like 15 EBC. These appear to be midranges.
Yes, but, he is using pale Maris Otter not every day Maris Otter.

Edit beaten to it.

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