Why is my lager this colour!?

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Jstinchy
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Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by Jstinchy » Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:58 pm

So, I brewed a Muntons kit using saflager 34/70.
I cold crashed for 5 days, including adding gelatine for 3 days.

I've attached two images.
3rd picture is the colour when syphoning into the secondary fermentator.
1st picture after bottling I included one in an empty plastic bottle to use to check carbonation.

Ignore the 2nd picture haha. That's a totally different brew

Any idea what's happened to the colour? Will this clear as the bottle carbonates then is chilled?

IMG_20210317_164859.jpg
IMG-20210317-WA0016.jpeg
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MarkA
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by MarkA » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:07 pm

It could be oxidised, did you introduce too much oxygen at any stage by splashing it around when racking or bottling?

Jstinchy
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by Jstinchy » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:36 pm

It splashed a fair bit when I moved it outside for cold crashing but remained sealed. This was after fermentation too.

Could that be it? Will it even change during bottle conditioning haha

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MarkA
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by MarkA » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:53 pm

If it's oxidised, there isn't anything you can do about it. The only thing to do is taste it, it'll either be ok or taste like wet cardboard (though some say it can also taste a bit like sherry!)

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Jocky
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by Jocky » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:56 pm

Oxidation. Definitely.

Obviously everything was ok until you siphoned to secondary - was it like this before or after you bottled it?

There isn’t a particularly good reason to use a secondary, but if you do then it’s a good idea to use something like a pressure barrel keg, as you leave an awful lot less oxygen in any headspace.

It also means you can partially carbonate, which is useful when you bottle as a bit of foam coming out the bottle before you cap it helps purge the bottle of oxygen.

Oxidation can and does happen while bottle conditioning.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by MashBag » Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:52 am

Jocky wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:56 pm
Oxidation. Definitely.

Obviously everything was ok until you siphoned to secondary - was it like this before or after you bottled it?

There isn’t a particularly good reason to use a secondary, but if you do then it’s a good idea to use something like a pressure barrel keg, as you leave an awful lot less oxygen in any headspace.

It also means you can partially carbonate, which is useful when you bottle as a bit of foam coming out the bottle before you cap it helps purge the bottle of oxygen.

Oxidation can and does happen while bottle conditioning.
Oxidation defo,
but I would like to
understand your thinking behind not using secondary (I absolutely agree you need to reduce any head space)

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Jocky
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by Jocky » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:18 am

MashBag wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:52 am

Oxidation defo,
but I would like to
understand your thinking behind not using secondary (I absolutely agree you need to reduce any head space)
I think secondary is a bit of a hangover from commercial brewing practices that don't apply at home brew scale.

Commercially you'd put your beer in secondary to get it off the bulk of the yeast while your beer drops bright. The reason they do that is because thousands of litres of beer creates a lot of pressure on the yeast its sat on top of. This can cause autolysis of the yeast, where the cell splits open and splurges its contents back into your beer, giving you a marmite like flavour.

On a homebrew scale you don't have anything like that pressure. So unless you are going to age for months autolysis is rarely a problem and the beer will drop bright sat on yeast. What you are doing by transferring to a secondary is increasing risk of oxidation and infection.

Having said all that... if I had to go back to bottling (after nearly 10 years of bottling I built a keezer last year) I probably would use a secondary of a sort, and this comes back to the original post. I'd get a pressure barrel, and get the beer in there either the moment it's done fermenting, adding a little sugar to create some additional carbonation while the beer finishes clearing and then bottle from that when it's done. There will be foam while bottling, but that's just CO2 bubbles, so as long as I have foam coming out the neck of the bottle when I cap it, I can be sure there's no oxygen left in the headspace of the bottle.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

WalesAles
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by WalesAles » Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:19 pm

Jocky,
Jocky wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:18 am
There will be foam while bottling, but that's just CO2 bubbles, so as long as I have foam coming out the neck of the bottle when I cap it, I can be sure there's no oxygen left in the headspace of the bottle.
I bottle from a secondary, bottling wand to bottom of bottle, end of bottle wand always submerged, stop filling 10mm from
top of bottle, remove bottling wand, perfect ullage on top of my beer. No foam, never had any foam ever, ever, ever when bottling.
Why do you get all the foam and I don`t? [-X
Never had a problem with the finished beer.

WA

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Jocky
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by Jocky » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:04 pm

WalesAles wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:19 pm
Jocky,
Jocky wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:18 am
There will be foam while bottling, but that's just CO2 bubbles, so as long as I have foam coming out the neck of the bottle when I cap it, I can be sure there's no oxygen left in the headspace of the bottle.
I bottle from a secondary, bottling wand to bottom of bottle, end of bottle wand always submerged, stop filling 10mm from
top of bottle, remove bottling wand, perfect ullage on top of my beer. No foam, never had any foam ever, ever, ever when bottling.
Why do you get all the foam and I don`t? [-X
Never had a problem with the finished beer.

WA
It’s not so much the filling as the oxygen left in the bottle after filling that causes a problem. The oxygen scavenging liner of most crown caps deals with that usually.

You’ll only get foam if your beer is at least partially carbonated.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

WalesAles
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by WalesAles » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:33 pm

Jocky,
Cheers for that! :D
Keep calm and carry on as normal then. :wink:

WA

How many of you googled `Ullage`? C`mon own up or get to the back of the class! #-o

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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by MashBag » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:38 am

WalesAles wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:19 pm
Jocky,

I bottle from a secondary, bottling wand to bottom of bottle, end of bottle wand always submerged, stop filling 10mm from
top of bottle, remove bottling wand, perfect ullage on top of my beer. No foam, never had any foam ever, ever, ever when bottling.
Why do you get all the foam and I don`t? [-X
Never had a problem with the finished beer.

WA
I could have written that. Spot on what I do.
Different folks different strokes.

Tbh I think the yeast deal with oxygen during secondary 'cos my caps are recycled sooo many times any scavenging ability must be absolutely stuffed. 😁😁

I don't like any beer wasted (ullage) and consider a bottling session a success if clean and I don't need to clean down.

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Jocky
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by Jocky » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:58 am

MashBag wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:38 am
WalesAles wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:19 pm
Jocky,

I bottle from a secondary, bottling wand to bottom of bottle, end of bottle wand always submerged, stop filling 10mm from
top of bottle, remove bottling wand, perfect ullage on top of my beer. No foam, never had any foam ever, ever, ever when bottling.
Why do you get all the foam and I don`t? [-X
Never had a problem with the finished beer.

WA
I could have written that. Spot on what I do.
Different folks different strokes.

Tbh I think the yeast deal with oxygen during secondary 'cos my caps are recycled sooo many times any scavenging ability must be absolutely stuffed. 😁😁

I don't like any beer wasted (ullage) and consider a bottling session a success if clean and I don't need to clean down.
If you’re filling bottles to the brim that would also work!
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by MashBag » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:06 am

I think the difference here is 'what' you are bottling.

Everything you say makes a lot of sense if you are bottling bright beer. In this instance, capping is the final process for the beer until drinking.

The majority of home brewers don't that - they will prime the beer with sugar and encouragea secondary fermentation in the bottle. The beer they have bottled is live. A different thing, which can validly be bottled differently.

Can I suggest nobody ever fills bottles to the brim as this has the potential to be dangerous. The air gap is there for a reason.

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Jocky
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by Jocky » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:32 pm

I've had beers darken while bottle priming. Like this:

Image

On the left was the beer that was put into a crown capped bottle, on the right is the same beer, bottled at the same time, but into a swing top bottle.

The crown cap's oxygen scavenging liner saved this beer for oxidation.

I'm sure there's a way to avoid this, but I struggled to figure it out when I was only bottling.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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MashBag
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Re: Why is my lager this colour!?

Post by MashBag » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Bizarre. It is not something I have never noticed.

I wonder if this is a yeast thing? Not convinced it's the bottle caps. I never have the problem and some of my caps have being recycled many times

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