Advice for a novice

[Tom Sawyer]

Hi fellas, new to the forum but not totally to brewing. I started around the mid eighties brewing Geordie bitter & Yorkshire bitter using the old ''Barr'' bottles. I only did a few brews over a couple of years but was always surprised at how nice it was.
Anyhow, I've recently started again but this time thought I'd use a keg. I've only done two brews but have been very disappointed, they were both Muntons Premium Gold, the first the Midas Touch, which didn't really clear although I put this down to the temperature in the garage - it was late summer and still pretty warm. The second was the Old Conkerwood which was nice for the first few pints but then went completely flat.
Now with both I've relied only on the secondary fermentation and conditioning to keep the beers lively but after about 8 or 10 pints they've both gone flat in the keg.
I understand this happens towards the end of the keg but I was very disappointed to find it happening so early into the beer.
Couple of questions: Should I be using a method of getting co2 into the keg (just a plain white budget one)? Or could it be the kits I used?
Also I've just put on a Coopers IPA, should I risk kegging that and hope for better results or mebbes try bottling?
Any thoughts please gents?
Thanks and apologies for any daft questions,
Also, apologies to Friary as I know he's got a similar thread asking for starters advice, but I didn't want to hijack his.
Cheers

[Ditch]

Should I be using a method of getting co2 into the keg (just a plain white budget one)?

Basically; Yes. It sounds like ye should. But, ye'd also be well advised to check the seals, at top and bottom, too.


On a completely disconnected note; I don't suppose ye real surname's Sawyer, is it? Just taking a completely wild stab in the dark here. Click my handle to PM me

[Tom Sawyer]

Thanks for the reply Ditch,
I'll check the seals. Interested to find out what you & other people use -kegs without co2, kegs with co2, bottles?
Also with the type of barrel I have, is it just a matter of getting a different screw top with a connector and the cannister and once it's connected just injecting some gas just before I dispense or does the cannister keep the beer carbonated?
Sorry for all the questions but I don't want to waste the IPA I've just started.

Cheers

[EoinMag]

The simplest way to do what you want to do is to buy the co2 injector cap for the budget barrel, I think I paid 14.99 for one in wilkinsons a while back, then you buy small bulbs of one time use 8g gas cylinders to top up the keg whenever needed. It normally takes 4-5 bulbs to empty a keg in my experience.

http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Home-Brewi ... vt/0022563 (the price appears to have gone up a little)

And the Co2 bulbs

http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Home-Brewi ... vt/0022562

[Ditch]

I'm a strange one, Tom. I use kegs, just like yours. Only, I don't bother with priming sugar in mine (That's more an observation than a suggestion) I also use/d the big, Hambleton Bard CO2 bottles, as opposed to the little bullet like things Eoin prefers. They each require a different type of brass fitting on the cap of the keg.

I say " use/d ", because I got ripped off by a supplier who sent me 'refills' he'd tried to refill himself. They leaked and so I simply lost all the gas

Result was that I simply had to carry on with no gas. And I've just sort of got used to it now. But then, I empty a keg in about a week .....

[EoinMag]

Hi Ditch,

as you know the S30's aren't easy to refill here in Ireland and I'm not a big fan of the homebrew place that you use online, I won't name it now, but it's the one you order most of your stuff off of and he has similar widget world stuff. I'd get S30's if they were easy, this is all only a stop gap anyway until I move onto filling my own ten gallon kegs on a proper beer tap system.

[Tom Sawyer]

Thanks Eoin & Ditch, I went to the HBS today and learnt a bit more. Think I'll go down Ditchs' route with the bigger bottles. Guy in the shop thinks I've been leaving the beer in the FV for too long which I did after someone on here was advocating the longer the better.
Also saw the mini kegs which I think may be a long term (when I can afford it) solution for me. I like the fact they are small enough to stick in the fridge, as I'm planning to do lagers as well as beers.
Thanks again fellas, I appreciate the help.


Cheers

[EoinMag]

Thanks Eoin & Ditch, I went to the HBS today and learnt a bit more. Think I'll go down Ditchs' route with the bigger bottles. Guy in the shop thinks I've been leaving the beer in the FV for too long which I did after someone on here was advocating the longer the better.
Also saw the mini kegs which I think may be a long term (when I can afford it) solution for me. I like the fact they are small enough to stick in the fridge, as I'm planning to do lagers as well as beers.
Thanks again fellas, I appreciate the help.


Cheers

How long is too long in the fermenter? I normally advise a long primary, the beer I have in front of me was 5 weeks in the fermenter. Two weeks in the keg and it's a lovely porter. I'd not leave it below three weeks in the primary to be honest, any shorter and it's not finished, fermented out maybe, but not finished. I don't drink beer below about 6-8 weeks old, others prefer it younger, but in all honesty.....not my beer.

[Ditch]

Eoin, this was 'the other guy'. I don't recall having had a problem with my main man. I'm pretty sure I had a refill off him and it was a proper, sealed and bagged job from HB. This other f**king idiot is sending them out with parcel tape plastered over the ends. The first one caught me on the hop. I had no other gas. What was I supposed to do? But, having put a shot into my keg, nothing would stop the gas pissing out of the bottle! I lost that lot.

Got onto the prick and he sent me another one. Exactly the same! Brown tape job. Only, being anxious to see what he'd sent this time, I opened the parcel in my local, where I have my packages delivered ..... and cleared the bar in two minutes flat!!!

The poxy thing was just pouring CO2 into the air, the moment I took the bubble wrap off it. I went out the back door, with the hissing cannister, as the entire clientèle of the pub went out the front. Can ye even begin to imagine how happy I was? Poor Landlady nearly feinted too.

Frankly, if that's considered par for the course here ~ if suppliers try to up their profits with DIY refills? I'll do without gas. Because I could certainly do without having my arse sued for the entire value of everything I own!

[EoinMag]

Eoin, this was 'the other guy'. I don't recall having had a problem with my main man. I'm pretty sure I had a refill off him and it was a proper, sealed and bagged job from HB. This other f**king idiot is sending them out with parcel tape plastered over the ends. The first one caught me on the hop. I had no other gas. What was I supposed to do? But, having put a shot into my keg, nothing would stop the gas pissing out of the bottle! I lost that lot.

Got onto the prick and he sent me another one. Exactly the same! Brown tape job. Only, being anxious to see what he'd sent this time, I opened the parcel in my local, where I have my packages delivered ..... and cleared the bar in two minutes flat!!!

The poxy thing was just pouring CO2 into the air, the moment I took the bubble wrap off it. I went out the back door, with the hissing cannister, as the entire clientèle of the pub went out the front. Can ye even begin to imagine how happy I was? Poor Landlady nearly feinted too.

Frankly, if that's considered par for the course here ~ if suppliers try to up their profits with DIY refills? I'll do without gas. Because I could certainly do without having my arse sued for the entire value of everything I own!

Hmmm there are a few operators about now, not sure who you mean if it's not your normal dude, I suspect I know which one it is though, the one in Limerick.

[Tom Sawyer]

Eoin, it was only in about 2 1/2 - 3 weeks. I think it must've been your post I read at the time, which was encouraging longer in the fermenter. I think whoever it was used the line ''time is your friend''.
Anyhow the fella today was saying that it was pretty much critical that as soon as fermentation is finished, the beer must be kegged or bottled or you miss the window and the beer will be flat. This would certainly stack in with my two brews as, on the second I also did a couple of bottles and they were flat too.
I'm certainly not doubting what you're telling me and I'm grateful to you for bothering your a..se replying and helping me out, but it is a bit concerning (to a starter) that a part of the process which is quite fundamental and important would see such differing views.
Or could it be that you're both right, in that if you leave it longer you may get nicer beer but it would be flat, only, you don't notice because you use the Co2 bulbs. And if you do keg or bottle earlier the beer tastes nice enough but is livlier and only when you're getting to the end of the keg does your beer get flat?
I'd be very interested in your thoughts.

Cheers

[EoinMag]

Eoin, it was only in about 2 1/2 - 3 weeks. I think it must've been your post I read at the time, which was encouraging longer in the fermenter. I think whoever it was used the line ''time is your friend''.
Anyhow the fella today was saying that it was pretty much critical that as soon as fermentation is finished, the beer must be kegged or bottled or you miss the window and the beer will be flat. This would certainly stack in with my two brews as, on the second I also did a couple of bottles and they were flat too.
I'm certainly not doubting what you're telling me and I'm grateful to you for bothering your a..se replying and helping me out, but it is a bit concerning (to a starter) that a part of the process which is quite fundamental and important would see such differing views.
Or could it be that you're both right, in that if you leave it longer you may get nicer beer but it would be flat, only, you don't notice because you use the Co2 bulbs. And if you do keg or bottle earlier the beer tastes nice enough but is livlier and only when you're getting to the end of the keg does your beer get flat?
I'd be very interested in your thoughts.

Cheers

You don't get gas into your beer until you keep it under pressure, in a vessel, either a bottle or a keg where the CO2 that normally would bubble off in the bubbler is not allowed to escape and is forced into solution. Sorry to confuse you but your homebrew shop dude is talking rubbish. Even when yeast apparently settles out there is still some in solution and when primed this will gas up your beer once the gas is not allowed to escape.
I have beers that were 5 weeks in the fermenter sometimes priming in 4-5 days when in bottles, the taste is still young, but once they've had 2-3 weeks in the bottle they are great.
It was me who advised you that and the advice still stands.

[EoinMag]

The home brew shop guy might be referring to the commercial process of bottling before the beer has finished it's primary and letting it gas up on the sugars that are left in so that it reaches the final gravity in the bottle, they don't add extra sugar to prime just rely on the fact that fermentation is not finished. It doesn't sound like it as you said he mentioned soon after it was finished.

[EoinMag]

One other point, your beer will go flat in the keg as the level of the beer goes down and the gas in the beer which was under pressure now has negative pressure in the headspace and as a result the gas comes out of solution and the beer goes flat. This is where you need a spray of gas on it to stop that from happening and keep the pressure up. I find I get about 10-12 pints out of my budget keg before it starts to go flat so you're in or about the right place with that.

Eoin

[Tom Sawyer]

Thanks for clearing that lot up for me Eoin. Just on your last point, does that mean kegs aren't really suitable unless you're going to use some sort of co2? Or does it depend on the type of beer and how long you want to keep it? - just thinking about Ditchs' scenario when he was left without any gas, is it different with stout for example?
Also just on the practicalities, are you saying that you would draw your first 10 - 12 pints without any co2 then give it a blast, or would you not let it get to that stage. And if you did, is it then too late, the beer is flat and you giving it a blast wouldn't save it?
Sorry for all the questions, but for some daft reason it seems dead important.

Cheers