Poor results from stout kit

[mr_jolly]

(this is a re-post as I originally asked this question at the end of a discussion about stout kits - so sorry if you've already read my post but I'm still searching for an answer... )

I recently brewed from an EDME Dry Stout kit but the results have been quite poor. I don't know if one or more of my mistakes made the beer quality diminish from its intended level but I'll explain what I did and then maybe you can tell me where I went wrong (I'd welcome suggestions as I would like to learn from this mistake).

Possible mistake #1: When the kit arrived I had some Nottingham yeast that I'd had in the fridge for a few months so I thought I'd use that instead of the yeast that came with the kit. The nottingham yeast was well within it's expiry date. I'm sure (with hindsight!) that I should have used the yeast that came with the kit but I chose not to (doh!).

Possible mistake #2: I wanted to use just spray malt to boost the sugar levels (as the kit only made 20 or so pints and I wanted 40). Anyway I only had a certain amount of spray malt to spare so I used 400g medium spray malt and 500g brewing sugar.

The fermentation went well (apart from the smells - during fermentation the smell given off was quite bad - a strong sulphurous smell, like bad eggs). The brew took about about 6 days to reach final gravity. I kegged and bottled the beer (which was still a bit smelly) and conditioned with a spray-malt solution.

After many weeks the resulting beer is drinkable (at a push) but has a hint of a wine-gum type flavour and the odour still isn't very appealing.

So I'm wondering if the poor result was caused by the yeast that I used, or could it have been the sugar, or could it just have been infected in some way? The final gravity indicated that the correct amount of sugar had been converted to alcohol so I don't suspect wild yeast (added to the fact that I prepared everything in the kitchen and used bleach to sterilise everything before thoroughly rinsing).

The things I really don't like about the beer are: 1) the smell - it's not great; and 2) the hint of wine-gum flavour - not great either. I'd say the flavour is a bit sour too.

As the yeast's the only ingredient I've not used before that's what I'm assuming probably caused the bad result. But your thoughts would be welcome...

Many thanks

[Ditch]

I wanted to use just spray malt to boost the sugar levels (as the kit only made 20 or so pints and I wanted 40). Anyway I only had a certain amount of spray malt to spare so I used 400g medium spray malt and 500g brewing sugar.

Well, for one thing, that doesn't sound like something I'd contemplate. Trying to bump up a kit do double volume with a handful of malt and sugar.

Can't see that producing the 'wine gums' effect though. People on here talk about TCP, HB Twang, all sorts of stuff. Now it's " Wine Gums "?

My advice ~ and giving it will likely bring a storm of other stuff in from all the people who couldn't be arsed before. You watch! ~ My advice would be to not meddle. Buy a kit which claims it'll produce something in the park of what ye want. Do what it says on the can. Drink it. That, or at least follow a tried and tested tweak, such as I do with my own stout kits from Coopers.

People with more experience may get away with steeping hops in their kits and such weird stuff. Using different yeasts. But, they do so with a fair knowledge of Why. They'll have gained that knowledge by producing some absolute poison over the years.

Look on the bright side; Ye've added to ye own knowledge now. Won't be doing that experiment again, will ye?

[boingy]

Is the Edme kit one of those where they say "either brew 20 pints without adding sugar or add sugar and brew 40 pints"? In other words, decide whether you want 20 nice pints or 40 slightly less nice ones!

Did you add the recommended amount of sugar/spray malt?

I don't think changing the yeast would have caused the flavours you describe.

[mr_jolly]

Yeh the kit recommended adding sugar to the mixture if more beer was the desired result. So I was (at least in this case) following the instructions. The total amount I added was approximately what it said on the tin (i.e., ~1kg total). I was hoping to add 1kg spraymalt but didn't have enough so used a mixture.

[dedken]

Hi there Mr Jolly,

Here's my tuppence - you've bottled it a touch on the early side for starters. Normally I wait at least 7 days and now I usually give it a few more just so that the yeast can get on with clearing up some of their excrement and settle out a bit more.

Sulphurous smells and other even weirder indescribable ones are not uncommon with fermentation, so nothing to worry about there.

With your Nottingham yeast - how much was there? how do you know you had enough to ferment 23 litres - did you calculate it properly? I've pitched from the trub of a previous brew before but have always pitched extra yeast, just in case. I wouldn't be comfortable with the idea of storing it dormant for a while because I'm not that clued up on yeast and know that it is a 'tricky blighter' at the best of times. How sterile were you when you collected it? - sterilised container with a sterilised spoon? in what condition was it kept in the fridge - covered/uncovered? When you say it is in date, that doesn't mean that the cells haven't started to die off already - how soon after you collected it did you put it in the fridge and how long did you leave it there?

With your fermentables, you're going to be under the recommended amount - you only have 900g at my count, so at 40 pints the beer is likely to be weakish (abv) and slightly thin (because of the sugar) You probably wanted 1200g of fermentables when you consider that premium two-can kits are 3kg in total, and your can was probably 1.7/1.8kg Also did you sterilise your sugar by boiling it into a solution?

Could it just be the kit? I've not tried Edme stout but I have done a Milestone Black Pearl (which was gorgeous) and a 'Ditch' which tasted fine from the fv and is now conditioning.

My recommendation: give everything a damn good clean and sterilisation and try again this time with 1kg dark DME instead of the sugar. Use an extra 250g of demerara to boost your abv if you fancy it. Use the kit yeast. Or replace the Edme stout with a Coopers, which almost everyone on this website will recommend!

All the best, Ken.

hope you can find something of use amongst that!!

[mr_jolly]

Hi Ken,

Many thanks for your suggestions which are very much appreciated. I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you asked about boiling up the sugar. Doh! (I didn't boil it at all). I warmed up the kit and mixed it with the desired quantity of sterilised [with 2 campden tablets] water and sugar/spray malt, but didn't actually boil my sugar or spray-malt ingedients.

For what it's worth the nottingham yeast was in a sachet. I spose I was a bit misleading when I went on about it being in the fridge. I just kept it there to prolong its life (which may, or may not have made a difference). So I'm fairly sure the yeast was healthy and there was enough to brew the quantity required (the FG was fine so I don't think the yeast count was inadequate for 40 pints).

I can't remember how long I left it before kegging and bottling (I split it 70/30 in favour of the keg) but you may well be right - I probably didn't leave it to settle as long as I should have done to let the cr*p sink to the bottom of the FV. Lesson learned!

My previous brews have all been using grain and, of course, everything is boiled to death so there's not much chance of infection. I guess I just assumed the unboiled sugar wouldn't affect the outcome but I should have at least mixed it with boiling water for a few minutes to kill off any nasties. It seems obvious now but I guess the only way to improve is to learn from one's mistakes, no matter how obvious they are.

Finally, I don't think the kit brand itself would have made the final result taste/smell quite as poor as it does. As I poured the mixture into the FV I remember thinking "wow that smells good enough to eat/drink!". So next time I'll make sure all the ingredients have been boiled before use and I won't transfer out of the FV for at least 4 days after fermentation finishes.

Thanks again for your help

[bevvy_merchant]

I warmed up the kit and mixed it with the desired quantity of sterilised [with 2 campden tablets] water and sugar/spray malt, but didn't actually boil my sugar or spray-malt ingedients.

there may lie your problem.

[mr_jolly]

Now I think about it I have a feeling I used 1.5 tablets (split the 2nd in half before crushing up and disolving in the water). How much should I have used? (if any)?

[Birdy]

Do what it says on the tin

[dedken]

Most people seem to use half a tablet per 25 litres. I use 1 but that's because I can't be arsed faffing about cutting something so small in half. Until recently in fact I didn't even bother using them at all.

edit...

Oh and don't be misled into thinking the campden tablets sterilise the water - the water is already sterile or it bloody well should be if it's coming off the mains Campden tablets remove the chlorine which makes it sterile, so by adding them you do then leave your water open to infection from whatever, depending on how long you leave it. How long did you leave it after putting the tablets it??

[mr_jolly]

I left it around 30 minutes after dissolving the tablets in it. I disolved the 1.5 tablets in around 35 litres of water (I then used around 30 litres of this water and poured what was left away).

[dedken]

Sounds fine to me other than the slight excess of CT. I wouldn't have thought there'd be a problem with your water in that time. I have heard of people leaving it overnight - yikes!!

[mr_jolly]

Out of interest what is the effect of using too much campden tablet? (in terms of resulting beer flavour?). Or would it just make the fermentation fail?