Dear JBK HB Forum
I'm just about to bottle the first batch I've made in ages (since I was a student!) and would like some advice on priming my bottles.
Being a bit of a trial run, I wanted to get all the equipment working rather than splash out on loads of ingredients, only to muck it up! The base beer is Wilko's Copper Hoppy LME, using Munton's beer enhancer, instead of cane sugar. The specific gravity started at 1.040 and moved to 1.013, where it has stayed quite firmly (apparently SG is nudged up by beer enhancer).
On transfer from fermenting bin to a second (polymer barrel) for initial conditioning, it tasted fine - just a little dull. Now that it's settled, I'm not up for adding hops and waiting again but I'd like to think I can have some influence on what happens in the bottle. I'd like to achieve a bit more richness and apparent sweetness, though hopefully not actual sweetness or over maltiness.
The options I have considered are...
1. Glucose/dextrose (brewing sugar).
2. Honey (not got to variety yet! Ideas welcome).
3. Golden syrup.
4. Treacle (red tin).
5. LME e.g. the one on offer at H & B.
6. DME - I can get to a brew shop that sells the Muntons ones.
7. Dolce latte - is this just madness?
8. ... Other suggestions (inc. Combo of above) ...
Regarding amounts: in winemaking, it is accepted that 17g/litre glucose coverts (approximately) to 8g/litre ethanol (i.e. 10ml - 1% abv). Does this hold for beer too, even in the anaerobic confines of a bottle? Also, am I correct thinking the same metabolism also generates about 7g/litre carbon-dioxide and the remainder is water (plus some unconverted)? I don't want the brew to go loads above 4% (approx 3.5 at the moment), which is what a batch prime of 170g brewing sugar would achieve (using estimate 20 - 21 litres). If not using glucose (or dextrose), how much should be added to achieve the same result?
Realistically, the conditioning time is likely to be 2 weeks for the first few bottles and up to 2 months for the last few, so lees ageing or autolysis isn't really a consideration but I am keen to ensure the creamiest mid palate I can. Therefore, if a specific priming agent is known to do this, but not until 4 - 6 weeks, I would exercise a little patience!
I guess the question I have is, what should I use to improve density, without becoming too cloying or, probably just as importantly, blowing the lids off? Also, I don't want the primer to cause slow clearing cloudiness because the brew seems quite clear, despite a fright from that annoying chitosan stuff (Young's beer finings, which I'll never use again!).
Many Thanks in advance for your help.
Aside: I've been reading posts on here for the last few weeks and it's really amazing! If there's one heading missing from this forum, it's for a section dedicated to conditioning - carbouys, kegs and bottles. Or, am I missing something?
Priming
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simon50
Re: Priming
hello,
i have always just used dextrose for priming to keep the cost of the bubbles down (joke) but the priming calculator below would suggest that the honey / DME would be best:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/
you should really be aiming at about 40-50g of dextrose for priming 5 gal of bitter (170g is nigh on fizzy pop territory). with using around 50g of anything on your list, i'm not sure it would actually contribute any noticeable difference although as i say; i have only ever used dextrose. if you over prime, it can have a really detrimental effect on the finished beer.
carbonation / conditioning should help with the taste and mouth feel on a more positive note!
hope this has been of some help
i have always just used dextrose for priming to keep the cost of the bubbles down (joke) but the priming calculator below would suggest that the honey / DME would be best:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/
you should really be aiming at about 40-50g of dextrose for priming 5 gal of bitter (170g is nigh on fizzy pop territory). with using around 50g of anything on your list, i'm not sure it would actually contribute any noticeable difference although as i say; i have only ever used dextrose. if you over prime, it can have a really detrimental effect on the finished beer.
carbonation / conditioning should help with the taste and mouth feel on a more positive note!
hope this has been of some help
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rootsbrew
Re: Priming
Thanks for the tips.
Clearly, I needed some guidance on amounts. Thanks for heads up on calculator - I'll give it a look. A lot of them seem to use US units (not UK imperial) so it was quite difficult to know how much to calculate for.
So, 3g glucose / litre beer is probably a better plan than my initial stab of 8.5g/l! Guess too much takes too long for all the bubbles to disolve and most of us want to tuck into our beer beforehand? Interesting, because Champagne (which must have at least 15 months bottle maturation) goes from 11.0/11.5 to 12.0/12.5.
As for what to add, I think I'll try 2 or 3 batches: I've got some lavender honey, black treacle and brewing sugar all to hand. How worthwhile would it be getting some DME, I wonder? If so, what type is most likely to add body without being too heavy?
If not using pure glucose, do I just calculate based on the glucose component e.g. if the chosen agent is 80g glucose /100g, just multiply by 0.8 or are there other factors to consider?
Clearly, I needed some guidance on amounts. Thanks for heads up on calculator - I'll give it a look. A lot of them seem to use US units (not UK imperial) so it was quite difficult to know how much to calculate for.
So, 3g glucose / litre beer is probably a better plan than my initial stab of 8.5g/l! Guess too much takes too long for all the bubbles to disolve and most of us want to tuck into our beer beforehand? Interesting, because Champagne (which must have at least 15 months bottle maturation) goes from 11.0/11.5 to 12.0/12.5.
As for what to add, I think I'll try 2 or 3 batches: I've got some lavender honey, black treacle and brewing sugar all to hand. How worthwhile would it be getting some DME, I wonder? If so, what type is most likely to add body without being too heavy?
If not using pure glucose, do I just calculate based on the glucose component e.g. if the chosen agent is 80g glucose /100g, just multiply by 0.8 or are there other factors to consider?
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simon50
Re: Priming
hello again,
with bottling being so very boring, it's far simpler to batch prime and add your whole load of sugars to a fv, then bottle it all from there. the calculator does the number crunching and suggests each amount of various options (dextrose/dme/honey etc) to dump in before bottling.
i think you would have to be bonkers to want to syphon the beer into 3 different containers to add different ones to, measuring out gloopy treacle or similar in the process.
if i had to add one, to try and add something (baring in mind i would only be using about 40g for a bitter to prime with) it would probably be dark spraymalt, i'd still not count on it contributing anything discernible though.
beyond adding a heap of spraymalt to the fv your beer is in now and starting a second fermentation (and raising the abv nearer to 5% from what it is now), i'd just batch prime with one chosen ingredient, bottle, then put your feet up.
with bottling being so very boring, it's far simpler to batch prime and add your whole load of sugars to a fv, then bottle it all from there. the calculator does the number crunching and suggests each amount of various options (dextrose/dme/honey etc) to dump in before bottling.
i think you would have to be bonkers to want to syphon the beer into 3 different containers to add different ones to, measuring out gloopy treacle or similar in the process.
if i had to add one, to try and add something (baring in mind i would only be using about 40g for a bitter to prime with) it would probably be dark spraymalt, i'd still not count on it contributing anything discernible though.
beyond adding a heap of spraymalt to the fv your beer is in now and starting a second fermentation (and raising the abv nearer to 5% from what it is now), i'd just batch prime with one chosen ingredient, bottle, then put your feet up.
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twentyfootwilf
Re: Priming
When I'm bottling I have always used dextrose. The amount used when priming is such a small percentage that it's not really all that critical so long as it will carbonate your beer to the desired level. For ales I use a level half teaspoon per 500ml bottle, for lager I use a little more to give it a bit more fizz.
If you don't mind paying a little extra then Coopers carbonation drops are just the job, 1 drop per 500ml dead easy, for lager I use 1 and a half drops. For kegging I just put the desired amount of sugar in the keg and syphon into it again dead easy. I only use one fermenting vessel for the entire ferment before bottling or kegging so I don't batch prime prior to bottling. You've done right in using brew enhancer rather than all sugar, you'll find that using all malt is even better. You may find that for your next brew you might want to have a try at a two can kit, these are usually very successful and there's plenty to choose from most of which will give a very acceptable result.
If you don't mind paying a little extra then Coopers carbonation drops are just the job, 1 drop per 500ml dead easy, for lager I use 1 and a half drops. For kegging I just put the desired amount of sugar in the keg and syphon into it again dead easy. I only use one fermenting vessel for the entire ferment before bottling or kegging so I don't batch prime prior to bottling. You've done right in using brew enhancer rather than all sugar, you'll find that using all malt is even better. You may find that for your next brew you might want to have a try at a two can kit, these are usually very successful and there's plenty to choose from most of which will give a very acceptable result.
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rootsbrew
Re: Priming
Definitely batch priming - I'm not very good at fiddly things so small margins will be aggregated in bulk (and combined, probably!) I think it's worth a punt trying to influence the brew, even if the difference is minimal. Last chance to improve/kill things! My hand has been forced and have to do this tonight so cannot get over to brew shop for spray malt (thanks for suggestion though). I have decided to go for the two extremes: dextrose and black treacle, though I would have liked to know what dolce latte might do!
Here's the output of the northern brewer calculation (and a few others), using IPA style effervescence as the target.
Assumptions: 2.75 US gal (10l), t = 68F (20C), p_desired = 2.4 vol.
=> 65 g Dextrose (brewing sugar) OR
=> 68 g black treacle.
My own calculations...
I want 2.4 volumes CO2 - equivalent to an IPA, according to most references.
There are 10 litres of beer, per half-batch, which is 0.9 volumes CO2, so I need to add 1.6 volumes (2.4 - 0.9) or 16 litres.
16 litres / 24 litres/mole = 0.66mol CO2, which should be added to each half-batch.
1mol glucose produces 2mol CO2 so, to obtain 0.66mol CO2, I need to add at least 0.33mol glucose, which has a mass of 60g.
Questions...
• Why is the NB calculator not using only the glucose content of the treacle, which is 60% by mass? Other sites recommend 30% extra to compensate.
• Both calculations are a lot more than your suggestion of 40g/20l. Do you only like it "just" sparkling? Is attempting IPA crazy?
• About the alcohol, am I getting my sums wrong? Surely to move all 20l from its current 3.5% to 4% needs about 170g? Am I incorrect with my abv estimate of the current beer?
• Do I need to introduce new yeast, or will it just be a bit slow to start if I don't?
Here's the output of the northern brewer calculation (and a few others), using IPA style effervescence as the target.
Assumptions: 2.75 US gal (10l), t = 68F (20C), p_desired = 2.4 vol.
=> 65 g Dextrose (brewing sugar) OR
=> 68 g black treacle.
My own calculations...
I want 2.4 volumes CO2 - equivalent to an IPA, according to most references.
There are 10 litres of beer, per half-batch, which is 0.9 volumes CO2, so I need to add 1.6 volumes (2.4 - 0.9) or 16 litres.
16 litres / 24 litres/mole = 0.66mol CO2, which should be added to each half-batch.
1mol glucose produces 2mol CO2 so, to obtain 0.66mol CO2, I need to add at least 0.33mol glucose, which has a mass of 60g.
Questions...
• Why is the NB calculator not using only the glucose content of the treacle, which is 60% by mass? Other sites recommend 30% extra to compensate.
• Both calculations are a lot more than your suggestion of 40g/20l. Do you only like it "just" sparkling? Is attempting IPA crazy?
• About the alcohol, am I getting my sums wrong? Surely to move all 20l from its current 3.5% to 4% needs about 170g? Am I incorrect with my abv estimate of the current beer?
• Do I need to introduce new yeast, or will it just be a bit slow to start if I don't?
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twentyfootwilf
Re: Priming
WOW 
that seems really complicated for something so very simple as priming. Your calculations look really precise I didn't realise it was so complicated. I think I'll stick to my half teaspoon per bottle, it seems to have been okay up to now 
that seems really complicated for something so very simple as priming. Your calculations look really precise I didn't realise it was so complicated. I think I'll stick to my half teaspoon per bottle, it seems to have been okay up to now Re: Priming
Bloody hell! 85g for an ale and 160 - 200g for lager! simple!!! 
Fermenting:-
FV 1 - Festival Spiced Winter Ale
FV 2 - Empty
FV 3 - Empty
FV 4 - Ditches Stout
Drinking:-
Keg 1 - Nothing
Conditioning:-
Bottles - Brewferm Winter Ale
Bottles - Brewferm Triple
Next
Work in progress
Old Tin of Coopers Cerveza
Couple of old tins of stuff to experiment with!
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simon50
Re: Priming
the NB calculator could well be wrong for the random options (?), it seemed accurate enough for the dextrose so i assumed they would have their sums right, i don't tend to use them anymore so just picked that from google as it had the items from your list on itrootsbrew wrote: • Why is the NB calculator not using only the glucose content of the treacle, which is 60% by mass? Other sites recommend 30% extra to compensate.
• Both calculations are a lot more than your suggestion of 40g/20l. Do you only like it "just" sparkling? Is attempting IPA crazy?
• About the alcohol, am I getting my sums wrong? Surely to move all 20l from its current 3.5% to 4% needs about 170g? Am I incorrect with my abv estimate of the current beer?
• Do I need to introduce new yeast, or will it just be a bit slow to start if I don't?
i also assumed with the kit you are doing being a bitter, you would want to achieve that lesser amount of carbonation, you can go for whatever amount you want but i usually try to stick to a general amount i have become accustomed to (40-60g for stouts and darker ales and 80-100 odd for golden and lighter ones, don't generally make lagers). I think if you are adding in excess of 100g you are getting into big fizz territory, i don't really like that, maybe you could try around 100g for a benchmark ?.
i think you may be getting your ABV calculations a bit wrong although i rely on other peoples maths for mine, by my (their) reckoning, 170g for priming 20l would only account for somewhere in the region of a 0.25% increase in abv (3.5 to 4% = around 290g needed (?)).
you don't need anymore yeast, it will be fine even if it looks relatively clear (as long as you don't pass your beer through a filter or anything). 2 weeks in bottle at a similar temperature to that that you fermented at should be about enough (due to the relatively low ABV) to see a definite amount of carbonation.
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rootsbrew
Re: Priming
Apologies! That'll be the former life of a chem eng undergrad speaking! I'm probably wrong though so anyone out there wh knows better is welcome to comment/correct. The alcohol calcs are maxima so if +0.25% is all that's achieved from 170g, then there's got to be some partial metabolism going on (i.e. flavour!). 4% is the most I'm after so, it's fine if there's only a nudge in percent increase.
Bottled and done - it's a right faff! Had two friends helping do syphoning and making sure the flow stopped/started as required. Apart from the initial 200ml or so on each half-batch, to purge the syphon of inducer (water), I think we only wasted a couple '00ml so very pleased. Also, we managed to get it to fit almost exactly into 37 bottles!
As far as initial results for colour/flavour go...
1. Pre-priming: Remarkably clean beer. Imagine a slightly less concentrated London Pride. Thankfully chitosan had no ill effects once allowed two weeks to settle out. SG suggested beer would be slightly off-dry, which it was, but only to the extent of a decent Gold. Main negatives were firstly not enough "high notes" and secondly, not quite enough citrusy acidity which, for a budget kit is important to balance unfermented sugars of the novice brewer. However, I could have added my own hops towards the end of fermentation.
2. Black treacle priming (red Tate & Lyle tin): This was less sweet and more savoury than I expected, though the treacle seemed to mask some of the beer's acidity, which I hope won't unbalance it. It was noticeably darker and more cloudy, with quite a rich aroma compared with the unprimed. It's a trial so, let's see! 75g in 10l - Hope the tin is correct saying 64% sugar by mass!
3. Dextrose priming: Obviously, this tasted like a sweet version of the original; really notice the absence of acidity here. This half remained dark-gold and hardly clouded over at all. 50g for 10l - Hoping the high pressure can force small bubles on those lees!
Thank you everyone for tips and advice. Hopefully there's enough yeast in solution to get to work on all that sugar!
I'll report on explosions and general tasting notes as they get opened...
St Peter's Red is going on to brew tomorrow. I don't want to do any wierd priming stuff to that but may well be asking about how to best to increase the light aromas, seeing as the hops provided are a sachet, not leaves. Another day, another brew!
Bottled and done - it's a right faff! Had two friends helping do syphoning and making sure the flow stopped/started as required. Apart from the initial 200ml or so on each half-batch, to purge the syphon of inducer (water), I think we only wasted a couple '00ml so very pleased. Also, we managed to get it to fit almost exactly into 37 bottles!
As far as initial results for colour/flavour go...
1. Pre-priming: Remarkably clean beer. Imagine a slightly less concentrated London Pride. Thankfully chitosan had no ill effects once allowed two weeks to settle out. SG suggested beer would be slightly off-dry, which it was, but only to the extent of a decent Gold. Main negatives were firstly not enough "high notes" and secondly, not quite enough citrusy acidity which, for a budget kit is important to balance unfermented sugars of the novice brewer. However, I could have added my own hops towards the end of fermentation.
2. Black treacle priming (red Tate & Lyle tin): This was less sweet and more savoury than I expected, though the treacle seemed to mask some of the beer's acidity, which I hope won't unbalance it. It was noticeably darker and more cloudy, with quite a rich aroma compared with the unprimed. It's a trial so, let's see! 75g in 10l - Hope the tin is correct saying 64% sugar by mass!
3. Dextrose priming: Obviously, this tasted like a sweet version of the original; really notice the absence of acidity here. This half remained dark-gold and hardly clouded over at all. 50g for 10l - Hoping the high pressure can force small bubles on those lees!
Thank you everyone for tips and advice. Hopefully there's enough yeast in solution to get to work on all that sugar!
I'll report on explosions and general tasting notes as they get opened...
St Peter's Red is going on to brew tomorrow. I don't want to do any wierd priming stuff to that but may well be asking about how to best to increase the light aromas, seeing as the hops provided are a sachet, not leaves. Another day, another brew!
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simon50
Re: Priming
glad it is all safely in bottle, it is an achievement in itself just to not drench ones clothing and floor when bottling although i do have to do it on my own.
one of the best investments a bottler can make (just jams right into the syphon tubing provided you have the right diameter):
http://www.colchesterhomebrew.co.uk/col ... Stick.html
one of the best investments a bottler can make (just jams right into the syphon tubing provided you have the right diameter):
http://www.colchesterhomebrew.co.uk/col ... Stick.html
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cookoff
Re: Priming
possibly the best invention ever ! that is even compared to the wheel !simon50 wrote:glad it is all safely in bottle, it is an achievement in itself just to not drench ones clothing and floor when bottling although i do have to do it on my own.
one of the best investments a bottler can make (just jams right into the syphon tubing provided you have the right diameter):
http://www.colchesterhomebrew.co.uk/col ... Stick.html
i just finished a bottling run and the stout ended up over gassy, but still drinkable. my recomendation would be 1/2tsp per pint or 1/4 / 1/8tsp per 1/2 pint.
if the beer still has fementables in it before it is bottled, this can have a drastic effect.
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rootsbrew
Re: Priming
Yes, using a rigid wand to shove inside the bottles made it a lot easier. Though, I have to confess that I was not the wand-master. I was the general overseer and barrel-tilter because I'm rubbish at fiddly things.
Should I be concerned if, after two days of being in the airing cupboard (warm but well below 30C), the bottles look a bit inert? The gold ones are even starting to clear! How can one tell if anything (fermenting-wise) is actually happening - and more's the point: if it ain't, what can I do about it?
Should I be concerned if, after two days of being in the airing cupboard (warm but well below 30C), the bottles look a bit inert? The gold ones are even starting to clear! How can one tell if anything (fermenting-wise) is actually happening - and more's the point: if it ain't, what can I do about it?
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simon50
Re: Priming
you just have to wait for at least 2 weeks then crack one open if you are using glass and have a check, i use PET usually and squeeze the remainder of air out before screwing on the lid so the expanding of bottles is plain to see although it does take some time after the bottle has expanded to shape before the co2 is driven into the liquid (2-5 weeks usually unless you are taking the piss with strength of beer)
some people when using glass will also fill at least one PET bottle alongside as an indication, to prevent opening their glass ones before time.
i wouldn't advise (if possible) opening any before 2 weeks has passed (the longer the better), it can be quite a slow process, some times they can take upwards of a week just to start plumping up depending on temperature and ABV.
it will be fine, 2 days is nothing unfortunately, yeast will often start settling and the beer can look clear well before carbonation, don't be tempted to shake the bottles and "rouse the yeast"!
after at least 14 days have passed, if you put one (...or more) in the fridge overnight, i think you should find they will be done being sub 4%.
...then on to conditioning (or alcoholism).
some people when using glass will also fill at least one PET bottle alongside as an indication, to prevent opening their glass ones before time.
i wouldn't advise (if possible) opening any before 2 weeks has passed (the longer the better), it can be quite a slow process, some times they can take upwards of a week just to start plumping up depending on temperature and ABV.
it will be fine, 2 days is nothing unfortunately, yeast will often start settling and the beer can look clear well before carbonation, don't be tempted to shake the bottles and "rouse the yeast"!
after at least 14 days have passed, if you put one (...or more) in the fridge overnight, i think you should find they will be done being sub 4%.
...then on to conditioning (or alcoholism).
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rootsbrew
Re: Priming
Maybe I should risk transfering one to a PET, just as a tell-tail? Good idea - mine are all glass but I thought I'd be able to see cloudiness while the yeast was at work, then it would clear, like the first fermentation.
What you've said is pretty much what I need to hear about just leaving them to do their thing for at least a fortnight. What happens if the bottles do get shaken? They're in boxes, which I will need to move to get into the airing cupboard.
What you've said is pretty much what I need to hear about just leaving them to do their thing for at least a fortnight. What happens if the bottles do get shaken? They're in boxes, which I will need to move to get into the airing cupboard.