The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale ?

Discuss making up beer kits - the simplest way to brew.
Lard Armstrong

The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale ?

Post by Lard Armstrong » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:31 pm

A friend and I have a wager (proceeds to charity) on who can can brew the best strong beer from a kit. It must be 1) over 7% ABV, 2) nominally based on a kit., 3) Ale or bitter style.

Obvious questions are as follows;

1) I will need a high attenuating yeast to get the ABV. I am using S-04, but I am not sure it is up to the job. I would prefer to use dry if possible. Any suggestions ? T-58 perhaps ?

2) Kit suggestions ? I have used Wherry, Nelson's Revenge, some cheaper kits. Recommendations appreciated.

3) Style and taste - no strong constraints here, but this may be dictated by the strength and yeast requirements.

4) What additional BKE/DME/Other you suggest ?

5) Advice on method ?

I hope you can help ! All suggestions greatly appreciated. [-o<

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Monkeybrew
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Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by Monkeybrew » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:51 pm

It's quite easy to brew a strong ale from any kit by lobbing loads of dextrose at it, but it will probably taste like shite!

I've brewed the Coopers Extra Strong Vintage Ale recipe twice now, and both times its fermented well and produces a great strong ale :)

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53251

If you don't fancy that, at least it may give you some ideas.

Also Nottingham yeast has a higher attenuation than S-04 and has quite a neutral flavour profile.

I have also found that Muntons Gold (premium) yeast attenuates well, but you would probably need 2 sachets for a strong full brewlength.

MB
FV:


Conditioning:
AG#41 - Vienna Lager - 5.6%
AG#42 - Heritage Double Ale - 10.5%

On Tap:
AG#44 - Harvest ESB - 5.4%
AG#45 - Amarillo Gold APA - 5.2%

Spooneys regular

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by Spooneys regular » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:55 pm

Festivals old Suffolk ale starts at 6%' before you f*/k about with it :out

Geezah

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by Geezah » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:11 pm

Personally I would make a Brewferm Diabolo kit up to just 5 litres and use a champagne yeast to make a 9-11% barley wine style ale

Hippo

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by Hippo » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:30 am

Simples. Woodfordes 'headcracker' 7% brewed to 24 pints. Excellent ale great tasting and strong. Brew to 22 pints and beat the hell out of it when mixing, should see you at around 7-7.5% ;-)

Lard Armstrong

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by Lard Armstrong » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:39 pm

Some great ideas, thanks chaps.

Just to come back to the yeast again, I read with interest Monkeybrew's suggestion of using two dried yeast sachets. Does this cause any problems with the flavour ?

Also liked the idea of the Champagne yeast, any suggestions which to us ?

Is T58 any good for what I am trying to do ?

TIA.

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Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by seymour » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:59 pm

Imperial Ditch Stout, anyone?

as in: his process, except two cans of Coopers Stout and top-up water until FG 1.075 – 1.115.

mattpocket

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by mattpocket » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:07 pm

seymour wrote:Imperial Ditch Stout, anyone?

as in: his process, except two cans of Coopers Stout and top-up water until FG 1.075 – 1.115.
Think the OP was after ale/bitter styles. Otherwise something like this would be my suggestion too :)

Matt

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Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by seymour » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:55 pm

mattpocket wrote: ...Think the OP was after ale/bitter styles. Otherwise something like this would be my suggestion too...
I guess I misunderstood the usage. But Stout is an ale style, right? I interpreted "3) Ale or bitter style" as in, not a lager.

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Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by timbo41 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:34 pm

Deffo go toucan,either a proper brand like woodfordes,or a mix and match. Try caxtons real ale plus geordie yorkshire,short brewlength maybe 18 ltr. Decent yeast like gervin,made to starter. Use irish moss as it takes long time to drop bright. Hopping to taste, remember though that kits already hopped (caxton has hop extract pack if I recall. God knows what abv was but weren't no session beer! :D
Just like trying new ideas!

Matt12398

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by Matt12398 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:34 am

I agree with Seymour. Why can't stout fall under the ale umbrella?

+1 to Nottingham yeast.

rootsbrew

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by rootsbrew » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:58 am

What restrictions exist on
A. Brew length/volume?
- the standard kit suggests making the wort up to 22.5 litres.
- clearly, wort volume has a massive impact on ABV - one could brew the shortest that the yeast would be able to ferment dry and only end up with 10 litres of beer (and 2 of trub!)

B. Amount and cost of ingredients (excluding aromatics)
- 1 two-can kit plus 2 kg DME, would make rocket fuel but is probably not in the spirit of what was proposed.
- Is LME considered another kit or can one only add DME (and sugar)?
- can more than 1 kit be used? I see one suggestion of using 2 x Coopers stout - and then brewing short!
- Essentially, what's the maximum amount of sugar permitted, in whatever form (DME/LME/kit/detrose/etc.)?

Just re-read top post. I thought it was an open challenge. Advice seems to be requested...
I guess tips might include:
* Make the kind of beer:
(a) that you would like to drink (e.g. don't make a turbo stout if you don't think you'll enjoy it!),
(b) whose flavours can tollerate being a bit/lot stronger than the base kit anticipates,
(c) that still tastes acceptable if it doesn't go "dry" and ends up having some residual sugar at the end.

* Try to work out the maximum ABV and acidity of what you're planning to make (BTW, 17g/litre glucose is equivalent to approx 1% ABV, when fully converted). You need to ensure yeast can tollerate these levels.

* Yeast, yeast, yeast: make sure the one you use is going to produce the flavours you're looking for, flocculates sufficiently to your liking and ** can tollerate the alcohol level you desire **. Your comment says high attenuation - a lager yeast should work, so long as the one you use isn't likely to do odd things at slighly higher (ale) temperatures.

* Reserve 1 litre of yeast-free wort (~5% initial volume) in an air-tight container, in the fridge, to rack on to, as the priming solution - you'll be using the same strength and taste.

* A really good yeast starter is very important for high SG beers. A combination of the physical density, eventual acidity and final alcohol mean it might be harder for the yeast to work properly.

* The yeast is most likely to digest all available sugar if (a) fermentation stays at a steady temp, (b) temp is approx 18°C (for ale). However, more sugar takes longer to ferment and lower temperatures also mean slower metabolism. You will need to be patient - try 4 weeks in the primary, with no secondary, then rack on to priming solution.

* Bottles can tollerate higher pressure than a basic barrel (one without separate CO2 cannister), so if there's a lot of residual sugar at the four week mark, it might be safer to bottle (just make sure they don't have any weaknesses!).

* Oh, and seeing as this brew will probably cost more than a basic kit, make sure your liquor (water) is up to scratch.

Good luck!

simon50

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by simon50 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:52 pm

ingredients:

1.5kg table sugar - cheapest, 100g of DME - cheapest, 150g of chocolate malt + any left over hops you have to obtain about 45IBU, brewed to 10l with champagne yeast - youngs (probably cheapest).

Est. ABV - 9.7%, 45IBU, 47EBC - total cost - ~£4.83 (non inclusive of left over hops :( )

(based on youngs brewbuddy bitter (?))

instructions:

make sure tasted second after thorough and extensive tastings of opponents.

Lard Armstrong

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by Lard Armstrong » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:21 pm

Fantastic, thanks all, I wasn't expecting so much informed help !

Based on the foregoing, here's my current thinking, I would really appreciate your comments.

1) I am planning to make a 23 litre wort, made up from a Wherry Kit, A Wilkinson's Copper Kit (quite hoppy), plus some DME or BKE to get the gravity up.
2) Two sachets of Nottingham dry yeast, or possibly Champagne yeast as suggested (one or two sachets ?)
3) I am not planning to add any hops.

What do you think ?

simon50

Re: The Challenge is on - How to Make a Strong Kit Based Ale

Post by simon50 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:25 pm

you do realise if you make a 23 litre dark ale with two kit cans and DME to get it above and beyond 7% your krausen is probably going to be about 3ft high (as in; about 2ft 9inches above where 23litre fv's lids are supposed to be)?

i would not use champagne yeast for a beer unless it was absolutely needed at the end, especially not when spending soooo very much on ingredients

i may be tempted to chuck the two kit yeasts in with 2 other nottingham/alternate though just for fun or wait for some fermentation to complete and then add DME later to up the gravity that way, pretty sure you won't have a problem anyway as long as you don't get silly.

good luck though!
Last edited by simon50 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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