Re: Old Beers & Brewing

[Jim]

Edd, this thread is gold. Thanks for posting all the recipes.

[scuppeteer]

These are some great recipes, but I take it they're your interpretation of them and not the actual from the brewers notes.

[MashTim]

Stockport’s my home town

Do you know what the fermentation vessels were? We all know about Yorkshire squares, what were other breweries using? Keep up the good work

[scuppeteer]

These are some great recipes, but I take it they're your interpretation of them and not the actual from the brewers notes.

Hi Dave ,
Thanks for the comments, all of my recipies have called for the interpretation of actual brewer`s production records , and sometimes there`s a lot of information , and sometimes as in the case of the T & G Greenall`s beers , just weight of materials , Gravity and if you`re lucky ; a brewlength !! .
If I see any Brewer`s Notebooks , rather than Brewing Ledgers / Books , i`ll devour every last bit of info in there , as that`s where you can pick up further info that might not be in the Brewing Ledger etc.
I know that there`s a couple of notebooks of Head Brewers in the Kent History Centre , I think that they`re from Fremlin`s (Maidstone Brewery) .
Another thing I`ll allways look at is , any Hop & Malt ledgers , as I know how much info can be in there from looking at Magee`s Hop & Malt ledger 1899-1927 that`s in my collection .
Cheers & Happy Mashing

Edd Mather

I'm just being a purist with some of the hop additions that's all. Several of the varieties listed weren't even about then.

I have actually looked at the Fremlins records, as you can imagine the early ones are a mine field. All in code, so you can only guess at what's going on, but it's not until you get to the 1920/30's when they actually become readable to the layman. They have over 100 years of records at the Kent County archive, and as they own them you don't have to worry about copyright, just ask for permission to republish. A fascinating read either way. I must make an effort and go back at some point.

[bobsbeer]

Hi All ,
Here`s the T & G Greenall Porter from 1862 , hope you all enjoy it !!
Cheers & Happy Mashing
Edd

Copyright E I Mather 2018
T & G Greenall ; Hall St Brewery , St Helens
Porter 21St November 1862

How can you copyright a beer that you have plagiarised from 1862?

[scuppeteer]

How can you copyright a beer that you have plagiarised from 1862?

Quite easily I'm guessing. Ed has done the research and interpreted his findings into (and no offence meant) a best guess and something useable for other brewers. Unless you have a complete understanding of the coding used by brewers 150 years ago you wouldn't have a clue where to start. I would imagine this has taken Ed hours and hours of reading to get to these recipes. As with any historian, you can copyright your findings but also index where the original information has come from.

[Manngold]

Edd, don’t let the above bother you. Some great info, thanks so much.

As someone who loves Fullers beers, which recipe would you suggest I try. I love the idea of brewing something from the past. Any pointers?

[bobsbeer]

Bobsbeer,
Have you asked the same question of others who publish their interpretations of old beer recipies? Or , do you think all books ,articles and other published works which include historical beer recipies are plagiaristic by their very nature ? .
As Scuppeteer commented , its taken me years of research to get to the point where I'm able to interpret historical brewing records , and my work on the beers of Joshua Tetley & Sons 1844-1916 alone has taken me eight months to interpret and , convert to an understandable formula for home brewers to use .
I copyright my interpretation of old brewing records to preserve my intellectual property rights.
Regards
Edd

Don't get me wrong Edd, I appreciate the work you have put into interpreting the historical recipes, and you have clearly been dedicated to the task of studying historical brewing. Clearly you have done a great deal of work, and I do not in any way denigrate that work. Where I question your use of copyright is your publication of the recipe. Is it your original work? It may well be an original recipe, but to then claim that it is a copy or clone of an earlier recipe makes me question if it is your original work to copyright.

[bobsbeer]

Clearly the recipe you have posted is your interpretation of an earlier recipe, and may well be an original recipe formulation by you and in that sense you are able to copyright it. It is not the original recipe of T & G Greenall Porter from 1862 that you claim it to be.

[McMullan]

Hi Ed, welcome to the forum. Interesting thread, thanks. In terms of copyright, it should be noted that none of the historical information was published therefore it wasn't ever copyrighted, strictly speaking. Also, it isn't possible to copyright a recipe, as there is no literary value to copyright. A published book containing recipes can be copyrighted. (It's as rare as unicorn farts for a book not to be copyrighted.) The book itself is considered a work of literary value. However, there is no protection for any recipes presented in the book. Recipes are not considered in the context of property rights. If you were considering publishing a book of recipes, you may wish take this on board, if you had expectations of copyrighting recipes.

[bobsbeer]

Edd I apologise if you consider my pointing out the copyright issue as offensive, tripe, unwarranted vitriol and offensive drivel. I'm not sure how you can come to such conclusions when no offensive words were used, but that is by the by. However I have no wish to derail what is an interesting thread and wish you all the best in your research. I and others I'm sure, find your posts interesting, but please be mindful of your use of copyright.

[The Epworth Brewer]

What a fantastic thread, and just as I was thinking of mothballing my AG kit. Some of us will have to up our game on these recipes.
Now if Edd were to come up with a recipe for Barnsley Bitter that would excite me in a way my wife hasn't been able to do for years.
I only ever drank Greenall's Bitter out of 2L plastic bottles from my local Tesco years ago and even that was better than a lot of the stuff you get today.

[The Epworth Brewer]

I wonder how much material on old breweries/recipes is sitting in public archives just waiting to be pounced on. It might be worth visiting the local library for anyone living near a defunct brewery.

[swiggingpig]

There's me all giddy to do the Greenall`s Bitter Beer from 1863 when you go and post this !!

Oh decisions, decisions !?!?!

Hi All ,
Here`s the T & G Greenall Porter from 1862 , hope you all enjoy it !!
Cheers & Happy Mashing
Edd

Copyright E I Mather 2018
T & G Greenall ; Hall St Brewery , St Helens
Porter 21St November 1862
OG : 1.067.5 Racking Grav : 1.017 Final Grav : 1.014
40 IBU 5½ % A.B.V

Thank you very much for your hard work and sharing these with us.

[Dave.T]

Hello Edd,
I visited Chester archives some years ago looking for Northgate brewery records. I copied a Bitter recipe and a Pale from 1900, I can't lay my hands on them right now but even if i could, i would'nt know how to convert bushels of Barley and Wheat into usable measures.
Good on you for sharing your time and effort, any Chester Northgate recipes would be welcome.

Dave