TTL: Caramelize or not?

[Dr. Dextrin]

I tried caramelising some wort a while ago as I was also looking for that elusive toffee/malt flavour in Black Sheep Ale. Maybe it's not a coincidence that this is brewed not far away from TTL and also in Yorkshire squares??

Anyway, my wort just ended up looking like the malt extract you get out of tins. It smelled and tasted the same too and had barely any effect on the final taste of the beer. I tried reducing a small amount down to the point where it burned and at no point did I get anything tasting remotely like toffee. So I reckon it's a waste of time unless there's a trick that I'm missing (like adding acid, maybe - don't you do that when making toffee from sugar?). Anyway, my current view is why turn good wort into the inferior product you're trying to avoid by going to AG in the first place?

The other thing I tried was increasing my boil time (up to 2.5 hours if I recall). The theory was that if it's kettle caramelisation that's going on, then this should increase it. But it had no real effect on the flavours I was looking for and neither did it really affect the colour. So another blank there.

Just recently I got another clue. I found some Black Sheep Ale on draught while up in Yorkshire this summer. I didn't know they did a cask version and I think it may be a recent development. Anyway, I know the taste of the bottled ale very well by now and the cask version is distinctly different. In particular, it has a great deal less of the toffee/malt flavour. So I'm even more convinced now that a lot of this flavour in bottled beer is a by-product of pasteurisation. That's not to say that you can't simulate it with the right combination of grains (if you want to), although I don't know exactly what you'd need.

I think the cask ale (Black Sheep, that is) is still a bit more malty than my attempts, however. I know that crystal malt adjustments get me closer, but it's still not quite right. Maybe the difference could be down to the yeast or using Yorkshire squares. If so, I'd say the same explanation could also apply to TTL given where and how it's brewed. However, I'm a bit suspicious of explanations that can't easily be tested. Like Chris, I suspect that most brewers are putting in things they don't tell you about. So I'm inclined to carry on experimenting with small additions of other malts at this point. I suspect the same approach with TTL is the way to go, but you do need to taste beers side-by-side to know if you're getting anywhere. Although I have great respect for US brewers trying to brew UK beer styles, I'd say that if you can't get a sample of the real thing, you'll never really have any idea how well you did.

[delboy]

I tried caramelising some wort a while ago as I was also looking for that elusive toffee/malt flavour in Black Sheep Ale. Maybe it's not a coincidence that this is brewed not far away from TTL and also in Yorkshire squares??

Anyway, my wort just ended up looking like the malt extract you get out of tins. It smelled and tasted the same too and had barely any effect on the final taste of the beer. I tried reducing a small amount down to the point where it burned and at no point did I get anything tasting remotely like toffee. So I reckon it's a waste of time unless there's a trick that I'm missing (like adding acid, maybe - don't you do that when making toffee from sugar?). Anyway, my current view is why turn good wort into the inferior product you're trying to avoid by going to AG in the first place?

The other thing I tried was increasing my boil time (up to 2.5 hours if I recall). The theory was that if it's kettle caramelisation that's going on, then this should increase it. But it had no real effect on the flavours I was looking for and neither did it really affect the colour. So another blank there.

Just recently I got another clue. I found some Black Sheep Ale on draught while up in Yorkshire this summer. I didn't know they did a cask version and I think it may be a recent development. Anyway, I know the taste of the bottled ale very well by now and the cask version is distinctly different. In particular, it has a great deal less of the toffee/malt flavour. So I'm even more convinced now that a lot of this flavour in bottled beer is a by-product of pasteurisation. That's not to say that you can't simulate it with the right combination of grains (if you want to), although I don't know exactly what you'd need.

I think the cask ale (Black Sheep, that is) is still a bit more malty than my attempts, however. I know that crystal malt adjustments get me closer, but it's still not quite right. Maybe the difference could be down to the yeast or using Yorkshire squares. If so, I'd say the same explanation could also apply to TTL given where and how it's brewed. However, I'm a bit suspicious of explanations that can't easily be tested. Like Chris, I suspect that most brewers are putting in things they don't tell you about. So I'm inclined to carry on experimenting with small additions of other malts at this point. I suspect the same approach with TTL is the way to go, but you do need to taste beers side-by-side to know if you're getting anywhere. Although I have great respect for US brewers trying to brew UK beer styles, I'd say that if you can't get a sample of the real thing, you'll never really have any idea how well you did.

There could be explaination other than pastueurisation though , black sheep in the bottle is filterered isn't it where as the cask will be sitting on the yeast, a major component of toffee taste is diacetyl IMO, this tends to dissapate over time though in the presence of the yeast, if the yeast is filtered out of the beer for bottling before all diactyl has been cleared up you get diacetyl in the bottle which can taste like toffee (it certainly does to me anyway) the stuff in the cask will have less of this flavour though as the yeast will have metabolised it.
I love the toffee taste of beers such as LP and to be honest the only way i found to replicate it was not through caramelising the wort of faffing about with various malts but to use the fullers yeast and to drink it young.

[Barley Water]

I agree with Dr. Dextrin, there is no way I can make a great clone of a British beer if I can not get a commercial example to do side by side tastings. Additionally, serving conditions are also very important, for instance, I am sure that running the beer through a beer engine makes a ton of difference taste wise (especially if you don't use a cask breather since the product will be at least be to some extent oxidized). I however look at cloning maybe just a little differently than many folks. I contend that it is very difficult to exactly mimic some other brewers work mainly because the number of variables that go into beer make it very hard to exactly replicate, at least at a homebrew level. Because of that, I really don't even try, besides they already did it so why not make something just a little different. What I usually do is to start with a clone formulation, try it out and see if I like the beer. I would say that 9 times out of 10 I end up messing with something to tweek the flavor one way or the other. For instance, right now I have an experiment going on with a British pale ale. The twist is that I am oaking the beer, a first for me. This beer is a clone formulation of Firestone Walker Double Barrel Pale ale but I am sure it will be a little different (better or worse, we will soon see). What I really want to find out is how the oak affects the taste of the beer so I can use the technique on other projects (maybe a throwback English IPA like they made to ship to India back in the day). Anyway, the whole deal is how well do I like the beer at the end of the day, not so much if it tastes exactly like a commerical product. Also, to me color is a secondary concern. If I am making a dark beer, I want the beer to be dark but trying to exactly match a particular shade of black doesn't matter to me so much.

As far as the toffee taste goes, I really love it and it is difficult to get exactly right in my opinion. I do think that you can get some of that taste boiling down first runnings however it is probably easier to just add crystal malts. I also agree with Delboy in that one of the keys is getting a little diacetyl which of course is a function of the yeast. The problem though is that I can't seem to control how much I get, let the beer sit on the yeast and it will clean the diacetyl up, pull it off too soon and you get buttered popcorn. Oh well, if this were easy, it would not be so much fun.

[delboy]

I agree with Dr. Dextrin, there is no way I can make a great clone of a British beer if I can not get a commercial example to do side by side tastings. Additionally, serving conditions are also very important, for instance, I am sure that running the beer through a beer engine makes a ton of difference taste wise (especially if you don't use a cask breather since the product will be at least be to some extent oxidized). I however look at cloning maybe just a little differently than many folks. I contend that it is very difficult to exactly mimic some other brewers work mainly because the number of variables that go into beer make it very hard to exactly replicate, at least at a homebrew level. Because of that, I really don't even try, besides they already did it so why not make something just a little different. What I usually do is to start with a clone formulation, try it out and see if I like the beer. I would say that 9 times out of 10 I end up messing with something to tweek the flavor one way or the other. For instance, right now I have an experiment going on with a British pale ale. The twist is that I am oaking the beer, a first for me. This beer is a clone formulation of Firestone Walker Double Barrel Pale ale but I am sure it will be a little different (better or worse, we will soon see). What I really want to find out is how the oak affects the taste of the beer so I can use the technique on other projects (maybe a throwback English IPA like they made to ship to India back in the day). Anyway, the whole deal is how well do I like the beer at the end of the day, not so much if it tastes exactly like a commerical product. Also, to me color is a secondary concern. If I am making a dark beer, I want the beer to be dark but trying to exactly match a particular shade of black doesn't matter to me so much.

As far as the toffee taste goes, I really love it and it is difficult to get exactly right in my opinion. I do think that you can get some of that taste boiling down first runnings however it is probably easier to just add crystal malts. I also agree with Delboy in that one of the keys is getting a little diacetyl which of course is a function of the yeast. The problem though is that I can't seem to control how much I get, let the beer sit on the yeast and it will clean the diacetyl up, pull it off too soon and you get buttered popcorn. Oh well, if this were easy, it would not be so much fun.

A very informative post, as always BW. I was wondering have you tried the fullers yeast yet, its one of the most consistent yeasts for producing the diacetyl toffee taste (in conjunction with some crytsal malts) especially if drunk young? It was the yeast that opened my eyes to the massive flavour impact that yeast can have.

[Barley Water]

Actually, I was thinking of Fuller's yeast when I wrote the post. Probably, of all the UK strains, I have the most experience with that one. About a year or so ago, I found myself with a beer shortage, a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. Anyhow, I love this London Pride clone formulation I do once in awhile so I made up a batch and rushed it into the serving keg. Because I moved it off the yeast too fast, it was very buttery, probably a bit too much although I do admit I liked the beer anyway. On the other hand, I have made the same beer, leaving it on the yeast for a reasonable amount of time and tasted none at all (when I would really rather have just a bit if you know what I mean). If I could figure out how long to leave it so I could get just the right amount, I would consider my job done on this earth. For whatever it's worth though, I have noticed that commercial Fuller's products seem to vary in this regard also so maybe I shouldn't feel too bad.

As an aside, besides messing with oak on my current project, I am also using the Ringwood yeast which is a known diacetyl producer. I may get myself a real education once this batch is done. I hope it works out well though because my current plan is to use the yeast again with a Hobgoblin type effort, we will see what happens. By the way, when discussing the toffee flavor, I think it matters a lot exactly which crystal malt you use. I have noticed that the British crystal malts seem to do much better than the American versions for whatever reason.

[delboy]

Actually, I was thinking of Fuller's yeast when I wrote the post. Probably, of all the UK strains, I have the most experience with that one. About a year or so ago, I found myself with a beer shortage, a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. Anyhow, I love this London Pride clone formulation I do once in awhile so I made up a batch and rushed it into the serving keg. Because I moved it off the yeast too fast, it was very buttery, probably a bit too much although I do admit I liked the beer anyway. On the other hand, I have made the same beer, leaving it on the yeast for a reasonable amount of time and tasted none at all (when I would really rather have just a bit if you know what I mean). If I could figure out how long to leave it so I could get just the right amount, I would consider my job done on this earth. For whatever it's worth though, I have noticed that commercial Fuller's products seem to vary in this regard also so maybe I shouldn't feel too bad.

As an aside, besides messing with oak on my current project, I am also using the Ringwood yeast which is a known diacetyl producer. I may get myself a real education once this batch is done. I hope it works out well though because my current plan is to use the yeast again with a Hobgoblin type effort, we will see what happens. By the way, when discussing the toffee flavor, I think it matters a lot exactly which crystal malt you use. I have noticed that the British crystal malts seem to do much better than the American versions for whatever reason.

That kind of backs up what i was saying about the toffee taste being down primarily to the time the beer has spent on the yeast.
Bottle = less time, and generally speaking more toffee
Cask = longer and less toffee

I suppose the ideal thing to do would be to get the toffee taste at a level you like and then filter it so that the yeast can't continue to clear it up, i think thats what happening with the bottled versions of some beers, that there is some batch to batch differences only enforces it for me as i doubt the recipe would change markedly from batch to batch, seems much more likely its how the yeast behaved and how soon the beer is removed from the yeast.

I've no experience of american crystal malts but certainly i have found that you need some crystal/dark malts to get the full benefit of the toffee taste, i can only guess the taste interaction between the diacetyl and the malts lifts it from buttery to toffee.

[Dr. Dextrin]

Thanks guys, good idea about the diacetyl. I've never really gone looking for that taste as I've never heard it described as toffee-like before, but I'll add it to my list of things to try. I guess just sampling the beer very young would give a first indication of whether it's the taste I'm after or not. I can't say I've ever noticed it being present before, but maybe I'll give one of those yeasts a try and see.

EDIT: I've just checked the Black Sheep web site as I thought I remembered seeing something about their bottling process. Sure enough, the beer is drawn from their brewery conditioning tanks (it's a bit vague how long it spends in those tanks) and then transported to the bottling plant. Then it's chilled and stored for 10 days before filtering, bottling and pasteurising. So they deliberately keep it on the yeast for 10 days longer than they need to. That sounds like it might be a diacetyl rest to me.

[mysterio]

This sounds a bit nuts but can you buy diacetyl in a pure form and pipette it into the finished beer?

Who's going to try it?

http://www.21food.com/showroom/23399/pr ... cetyl.html

[bosium]

This sounds a bit nuts but can you buy diacetyl in a pure form and pipette it into the finished beer?
Who's going to try it?

Not I, said the fly!

[Barley Water]

I don't know about that one. For some reason, adding diacetyl strikes me the same way as getting breast inplants. I suppose both get the job done but there is just something unnatural about the whole thing. Not only that but I bet the taste would not be exactly the same. I think Delboy's idea about running the beer through a filter has merit however I don't filter any of my beer either, mostly the product of sloth on my part. Besides, I like to think of my efforts as artsy and having a little yeast floating around once in a while just adds to the mystery in my opinion. To modify a phrase from the movie Forrest Gump, making beer is like a box of chocolates, you never know exactly what you are going to get. Since we are not selling the stuff, a little inconsistency is probably not a bad thing. In the wine world, they have actually made variation a selling point by highlighting various vintages, us craft/hobby brewers should do the same thing.

[Grot]

is the Wyeast 1469 available now and where from? Cant see it at Hop & Grape and I'm passing their door tomorrow

I am sure I used a reccomended White labs yeast last year for TTL but cant remember which one?
Any ideas?

Funny to see this thread up again!
1469 is in Wyeast's next private collection series to be released, which is next month over here.
I don't think I'll bother with the reduction this go round.

[bosium]

I may just fag the 1469 and have a go with the fuller's strain. I'm sure it'll make a good beer too, although may subdue the hops a bit?

[monk]

Hi guys,

Haven't been around for awhile, but I noticed there was another round of TTL posts here. This is the zombie thread, for sure. keeps rising again to wander through the New Posts list. haha.

I've pretty much given up on the caramelization technique. I'm sure it has merit to it, when used appropriately, but like Delboy and others I've noticed that I get the toffee flavor I want from good old crystal and the yeast. I think I've even experienced the "light diacetyl miracle" others have mentioned, where you somehow leave it on the yeast just the right amount of time (usually not long) and then bottle and drink young. I made a 2.5 gallon batch of LP clone back in 2007 that I'm still trying to replicate. I do love that toffee so.

Monk

[mysterio]

Long time no see monk, what have you been up to?

[monk]

Oh, the usual life stuff...Mrs. Monk is with child for the first time (that doesn't sound right). We're very excited and looking forward to the little one. I completed my garage bar, and have been using it extensively. I really am amazed at how a bartop and stools does draw people in and get them talking. The beer doesn't hurt either. Brewing has been somewhat half-as*ed lately, though I managed to brew a pumpkin spice beer and a hef/dunkelweizen double batch. The wheats are good but the pumpkin spice is kinda what I expected--better left in pie form.