Thought I'd look at that Promash software and plug in jims recipe http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.dunleavy/recipe.htm.
Putting in the Fuggles hops quantities into the IBU calculator come out with about 20 IBU's which is double the value jim lists in the recipe...... The promash calculator has an alpha acid value of 5%.
Any ideas as to the (large) discrepancy ?
Hmmm, Promash s/w and jim's recipe
You have to use the alpha acid content for the actual batch of hops you have (most decent hops have this marked on the pack these days).
But there's also the question of utilisation. The amount of alpha acid you extract from your hops depends on a large number of factors including the pH and gravity of the wort, the characteristics of the boiler etc etc.
Different formulae for calculating the final IBUs vary depending on the utilisation which is assumed. My formula came from someone else's bitterness calculator on line (haven't got the link to hand right now), but the bottom line is if you use the same boiler, recipe etc and then select the hops for alpha acid level you should get consistent results. And that's the important thing.
But there's also the question of utilisation. The amount of alpha acid you extract from your hops depends on a large number of factors including the pH and gravity of the wort, the characteristics of the boiler etc etc.
Different formulae for calculating the final IBUs vary depending on the utilisation which is assumed. My formula came from someone else's bitterness calculator on line (haven't got the link to hand right now), but the bottom line is if you use the same boiler, recipe etc and then select the hops for alpha acid level you should get consistent results. And that's the important thing.
I'll dig out a few links when I get home. There a a varying opinions on how to work it out, and some have found that getting the finished wort lab-tested was quite a surprise because it was nowhere near what their calculations predicted! Obviously not an exact science.
Is there a setting on Promash where you can enter a value for the utilisation by any chance (apparently it does vary wildly depending on your set up)?
Is there a setting on Promash where you can enter a value for the utilisation by any chance (apparently it does vary wildly depending on your set up)?
Well, looking back at the links, it's more complicated than I remember!
My simple formula was based on this site, but I can't remember exactly how. I only know that in my formula: -
Hops (g) = (IBU x 25) / (%AA x 2)
the utilisation figure is represented by 25/2.
Here's the links: -
http://realbeer.com/hops/
http://www.portchesterbrewery.freeserve ... cedure.htm
I've got some notes kicking about somewhere from when I put the formula together; I'll see if I can dig them out. As I said above though, the bottom line is consistency, so as long as you know how your own brewing system behaves, that's OK.
EDIT: Apparently my formula is based on a utilisation figure of 20% (according to my notes). Unfortunately, I didn't record the webstite url that recommended this figure! :rolleyes:
However, the text I cut and pasted into my notes is as follows and this is obviously where I stole (
) the formula from: -
There is a simple formula for determining the weight of hops in grams required to brew to a specified EBU value. This formula assumes a 20% hop utilisation. Some brewers may better this utilisation so adjustments may be necessary.
EBU REQUIRED x BREW LENGTH IN LITRES
ALPHA ACID OF CHOSEN HOPS x 2
Example: You decide to brew 25 litres of Bitter at EBU 45 using East Kent Goldings with an alpha acid content of 7.6%. The calculation is as follows:
(45 x 25 = 1125) divided by (7.6 x 2 = 15.2) = 74 grams
IMPORTANT: Only the 'Copper Hops' should be included in the above calculation as little or no bitterness will be extracted from late hops
My simple formula was based on this site, but I can't remember exactly how. I only know that in my formula: -
Hops (g) = (IBU x 25) / (%AA x 2)
the utilisation figure is represented by 25/2.
Here's the links: -
http://realbeer.com/hops/
http://www.portchesterbrewery.freeserve ... cedure.htm
I've got some notes kicking about somewhere from when I put the formula together; I'll see if I can dig them out. As I said above though, the bottom line is consistency, so as long as you know how your own brewing system behaves, that's OK.
EDIT: Apparently my formula is based on a utilisation figure of 20% (according to my notes). Unfortunately, I didn't record the webstite url that recommended this figure! :rolleyes:
However, the text I cut and pasted into my notes is as follows and this is obviously where I stole (
) the formula from: -There is a simple formula for determining the weight of hops in grams required to brew to a specified EBU value. This formula assumes a 20% hop utilisation. Some brewers may better this utilisation so adjustments may be necessary.
EBU REQUIRED x BREW LENGTH IN LITRES
ALPHA ACID OF CHOSEN HOPS x 2
Example: You decide to brew 25 litres of Bitter at EBU 45 using East Kent Goldings with an alpha acid content of 7.6%. The calculation is as follows:
(45 x 25 = 1125) divided by (7.6 x 2 = 15.2) = 74 grams
IMPORTANT: Only the 'Copper Hops' should be included in the above calculation as little or no bitterness will be extracted from late hops
QUOTE (BlightyBrewer @ Jan 16 2006, 08:43 PM) What are 'Copper Hops'? :huh:
Copper hops are the hops that you add near the start of your boil so as to extract the maximum bitterness from them. Also know as 'bittering hops'.
It's basically to distinguish them from 'late hops' which are added, as the title suggests, late in the boil. The idea of doing that is so that the delicate oils that contribute to aroma don't all get boiled off.
The down side is, of course, that you can't extract all the bitterness from late hops because they don't get boiled for very long. So you generally save the best aroma hops for last!
Copper hops are the hops that you add near the start of your boil so as to extract the maximum bitterness from them. Also know as 'bittering hops'.
It's basically to distinguish them from 'late hops' which are added, as the title suggests, late in the boil. The idea of doing that is so that the delicate oils that contribute to aroma don't all get boiled off.
The down side is, of course, that you can't extract all the bitterness from late hops because they don't get boiled for very long. So you generally save the best aroma hops for last!
-
BlightyBrewer
Du'h! Stupid me...copper=kettle=boiling hops..didn't see the link there, sorry. 
I know them as bittering, flavour, and aroma hops. Just out of interest, are the terms 'Copper hops' and 'late hops' English terms? I ask because most of my reading has been American books, websites, and forums. The US seems to be well ahead and a lot more active than the UK when it comes to homebrewing...and their equipment is a lot more varied and cheaper!
I know them as bittering, flavour, and aroma hops. Just out of interest, are the terms 'Copper hops' and 'late hops' English terms? I ask because most of my reading has been American books, websites, and forums. The US seems to be well ahead and a lot more active than the UK when it comes to homebrewing...and their equipment is a lot more varied and cheaper!
-
BlightyBrewer
I'm a member of a US forum, and the impression I get is that they love to brew all types of beer...in fact the variety they brew is very wide - from German wheat beers to Dry stouts...and the majority hate Bud and Coors light! B)
RIMS, HERMS....too elaborate for me! That's what I liked about Jim's site...showed you could brew good beer without fancy / expensive equipment (I'm assuming it's good beer Jim
!)
RIMS, HERMS....too elaborate for me! That's what I liked about Jim's site...showed you could brew good beer without fancy / expensive equipment (I'm assuming it's good beer Jim
!)QUOTE (BlightyBrewer @ Jan 16 2006, 09:11 PM) I'm a member of a US forum, and the impression I get is that they love to brew all types of beer...in fact the variety they brew is very wide - from German wheat beers to Dry stouts...and the majority hate Bud and Coors light! B)
RIMS, HERMS....too elaborate for me! That's what I liked about Jim's site...showed you could brew good beer without fancy / expensive equipment (I'm assuming it's good beer Jim !)
Well I like it, BB!
I agree totally about US homebrewers. They seem obsessed with the brewing equipment and go to great lengths to build bigger and better 3 tier breweries in their garages! :rolleyes: They seem almost more interested in the equipment than the beer! Maybe it's a macho thing. Apparently they have home brew events where they all load their brewing gear onto trailers and show them off to each other. It reminds me of steam engine rallies over here!
Having said that, I bet some of them brew great beers; it just may not be the style of beer that we strive for.
RIMS, HERMS....too elaborate for me! That's what I liked about Jim's site...showed you could brew good beer without fancy / expensive equipment (I'm assuming it's good beer Jim
!) Well I like it, BB!
I agree totally about US homebrewers. They seem obsessed with the brewing equipment and go to great lengths to build bigger and better 3 tier breweries in their garages! :rolleyes: They seem almost more interested in the equipment than the beer! Maybe it's a macho thing. Apparently they have home brew events where they all load their brewing gear onto trailers and show them off to each other. It reminds me of steam engine rallies over here!
Having said that, I bet some of them brew great beers; it just may not be the style of beer that we strive for.
-
sagwalla
Interesting discussion!
20% utilisation seems to be pretty much a standard assumption for homebrew. There was an interesting discussion on the Basic Brewing podcast a few weeks back with Ray Daniels (he of http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0937381500/) talking about the variations in utilisation - how pellets might give more and whole cones less because of the difficulty the wort has in permeating to the core of the leaves. Also, how the concentration of wort impacts recovery (changes solubility of AA, and how you need to use an adjustment factor to allow for the higher gravity worts). From the discussion, I thought the assumption of 20% was pretty fair if you were using the typical compressed packet hops and boiling the bejeebies out of them as copper hops.
As for American beers, micros and homebrewers, they are onto something worthwhile. Of course, being a displaced Yank who cut his teeth over there, I might say that. But there does seem to be a much wider variety and sense of experimentation over there. I agree the whole alphabet soup of brewing systems is a bit intimidating and I've yet to go there but the ultimate aim is to make excellent beers. I don't think it's fully an anorak phenomenon.
If these things are intimidating, well, grain brewing was once intimidating to me. I knocked off a kit beer this weekend to put a little extra in the fermentors and I was laughing at how easy this "brewing" was. A little stovetop boil-up, a few pitchers of filtered water and bang, right into the FV. Should be "Wherry" by the weekend. I also brewed my blonde ale and took great pleasure in this. I can see the attraction of adding a few bits and bobs to improve the consistency of my produce.
If the wide variety of American styles catches your attention, I think it's because the retail channels are more willing to market these styles. Why wouldn't an English pub take a flier on selling, say, an English beer brewed in a Belgian or (egad!) German style? Because the unadventurous pubs won't take a stab at moving 72 pints of something a little different? Because the ABV is too high to sell it by the pint as a session? Because the punter won't buy something unfamiliar? Only when it's wrapped up as Hoegaarden or something like that and flogged at an outrageous premium does it get a look in. IIRC, Wetherspoons was trying to sell De Konnick but I don't think it was very successful. The champion beer at the Home Counties festival this year was a wonderful Belgian Wit. I'd say "watch this space." We have much to learn.
20% utilisation seems to be pretty much a standard assumption for homebrew. There was an interesting discussion on the Basic Brewing podcast a few weeks back with Ray Daniels (he of http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0937381500/) talking about the variations in utilisation - how pellets might give more and whole cones less because of the difficulty the wort has in permeating to the core of the leaves. Also, how the concentration of wort impacts recovery (changes solubility of AA, and how you need to use an adjustment factor to allow for the higher gravity worts). From the discussion, I thought the assumption of 20% was pretty fair if you were using the typical compressed packet hops and boiling the bejeebies out of them as copper hops.
As for American beers, micros and homebrewers, they are onto something worthwhile. Of course, being a displaced Yank who cut his teeth over there, I might say that. But there does seem to be a much wider variety and sense of experimentation over there. I agree the whole alphabet soup of brewing systems is a bit intimidating and I've yet to go there but the ultimate aim is to make excellent beers. I don't think it's fully an anorak phenomenon.
If these things are intimidating, well, grain brewing was once intimidating to me. I knocked off a kit beer this weekend to put a little extra in the fermentors and I was laughing at how easy this "brewing" was. A little stovetop boil-up, a few pitchers of filtered water and bang, right into the FV. Should be "Wherry" by the weekend. I also brewed my blonde ale and took great pleasure in this. I can see the attraction of adding a few bits and bobs to improve the consistency of my produce.
If the wide variety of American styles catches your attention, I think it's because the retail channels are more willing to market these styles. Why wouldn't an English pub take a flier on selling, say, an English beer brewed in a Belgian or (egad!) German style? Because the unadventurous pubs won't take a stab at moving 72 pints of something a little different? Because the ABV is too high to sell it by the pint as a session? Because the punter won't buy something unfamiliar? Only when it's wrapped up as Hoegaarden or something like that and flogged at an outrageous premium does it get a look in. IIRC, Wetherspoons was trying to sell De Konnick but I don't think it was very successful. The champion beer at the Home Counties festival this year was a wonderful Belgian Wit. I'd say "watch this space." We have much to learn.
-
BlightyBrewer
QUOTE (jim @ Jan 17 2006, 08:19 AM) Well I like it, BB!
I agree totally about US homebrewers. They seem obsessed with the brewing equipment and go to great lengths to build bigger and better 3 tier breweries in their garages! :rolleyes: They seem almost more interested in the equipment than the beer! Maybe it's a macho thing. Apparently they have home brew events where they all load their brewing gear onto trailers and show them off to each other. It reminds me of steam engine rallies over here!
Having said that, I bet some of them brew great beers; it just may not be the style of beer that we strive for.
Well, that's the most important thing!
I think that taking a real interest in the equipment as well as the beer makes the hobby even more interesting (if you are practically minded of course). B)
I like the idea of a "beer rally"...but the parade in the central showground could be a little awkward!
I agree totally about US homebrewers. They seem obsessed with the brewing equipment and go to great lengths to build bigger and better 3 tier breweries in their garages! :rolleyes: They seem almost more interested in the equipment than the beer! Maybe it's a macho thing. Apparently they have home brew events where they all load their brewing gear onto trailers and show them off to each other. It reminds me of steam engine rallies over here!
Having said that, I bet some of them brew great beers; it just may not be the style of beer that we strive for.
Well, that's the most important thing!
I think that taking a real interest in the equipment as well as the beer makes the hobby even more interesting (if you are practically minded of course). B)
I like the idea of a "beer rally"...but the parade in the central showground could be a little awkward!
-
James
I think I’m with sagwalla on this one. The UK homebrew industry, IMO, is very stagnant and old fashioned; getting hold of live yeast is difficult; hops are just sold ‘loose’ in bags; there is no ‘no-rinse’ sanitiser redily available.
These are old fashioned ways of doing things that have not advanced or progressed over the last 15 years. The US homebrew market (before anyone says it WE ALL KNOW THERE IS A BIGGER MARKET OVER THERE!) embraces change, development and progress more than we do.
But I don’t think this is our fault as homebrewers. We can only buy what is sold in the shops. I think Youngs and breupacks need to step it up a gear and offer better quality, longer lasting, more ‘professional’ homebrew equipment to those that would like to buy it; (i.e. me!) just like Hop and grape are trying to do (they import stuff from the US)
JC
These are old fashioned ways of doing things that have not advanced or progressed over the last 15 years. The US homebrew market (before anyone says it WE ALL KNOW THERE IS A BIGGER MARKET OVER THERE!) embraces change, development and progress more than we do.
But I don’t think this is our fault as homebrewers. We can only buy what is sold in the shops. I think Youngs and breupacks need to step it up a gear and offer better quality, longer lasting, more ‘professional’ homebrew equipment to those that would like to buy it; (i.e. me!) just like Hop and grape are trying to do (they import stuff from the US)
JC