Now I have capacity, casking ales?

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herms bay
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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by herms bay » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:36 am

Dads_Ale wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:20 pm
Can't help with sourcing a Pin (maybe a local brewery would be able to help) but I use a corny keg connected to a cask breather and the beer lasts for several weeks (I drink it before it goes off or flat). I do leave a few psi overpressure when not serving to maintain the lid seal, this is vented before serving (I have a bypass around the cask breather and a shut off tap on the beer line)
Sorry didn't see your post...i've just said exactly what you said...

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MashBag
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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by MashBag » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:15 am

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:00 am

But you need one of >these< to handle the very low pressures (which is impossible manually or with "ordinary" regulators).
Can you just get a co2 reg with a knob in the middle and turn it down?
If you got much below 2psi the corny won't seal properly.

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by MashBag » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:22 am

herms bay wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:30 am
Image
This is to keep at 2 psi and then when ready to drink isolate 2 psi line, vent quickly then seal again and open breather for the evenings events. Then isolate breater and switch to 2 psi for the storage again, thoughts?
I would have thought it's simpler than that.
Gas on. Draw beer. When done, gas off (at the cylinder)

Not tried it, but I doubt 2psi is enough to cause issue with a beer engine.

herms bay
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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by herms bay » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:12 am

I'm using a pressure barrel not a corney so sealing isn't a problem. Not sure about the 2psi but I thought any pressure would force beer through the engine as my barrel is not down in a cellar with a big head to the pump so it may force beer through it. Will see the results after my attempts this weekend.
In theory 2 psi could push beer through 1.5 metres up a hose (I think) and the beer engine uses simple non return valves that would allow beer to flow through. The tap on the barrel will stop it when 2 psi re-introduced.

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:16 pm

herms bay wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:12 am
I'm using a pressure barrel not a corney so sealing isn't a problem. Not sure about the 2psi but I thought any pressure would force beer through the engine as my barrel is not down in a cellar with a big head to the pump so it may force beer through it. Will see the results after my attempts this weekend.
In theory 2 psi could push beer through 1.5 metres up a hose (I think) and the beer engine uses simple non return valves that would allow beer to flow through. The tap on the barrel will stop it when 2 psi re-introduced.
That's what a demand valve is for (aka. - incorrectly - a hand-pump "check-valve"). Note: Using a "real" check-valve or one-way valve would need to be fitted back-to-front and rely on "cracking-pressure" to hold back over-pressured beer; only works if they have a relatively high "cracking-pressure" and that is very uncommon (unheard of?) these days (they might work with a "fixed" 37mbar LPG regulator, that's <0.5psi, and "breathers", but they are far from ideal).
MashBag wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:22 am
... Not tried it, but I doubt 2psi is enough to cause issue with a beer engine.
That's correct. I've been using 50-150mbar (3/4 - 2 PSI) regulators with hand-pumps for years now. "Issues" only seem to affect my hand-pumps (Angram CQ) above 5psi+ with creaking, banging, juddering (water-hammer probably). Beer turning to foam is an "issue" before then! Other hand-pumps may differ.

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:28 pm

Using "fatter" lid O-rings, and some lubrication, fixes low pressure sealing of Corny kegs (forget so-called "softer" silicon O-rings).

You can get softer silicon rubber O-rings at 60 "whatsits" rather than 70. But you can get 60 "whatsits" nitrile rubber ones too. But "softer" means "damages easily", and then they'll leak anyway!

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by f00b4r » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:07 pm

Just be aware that if you use non return valves on your gas line or gas manifolds (usually containing non return valves too) then you may be ‘losing’ between 1-3 PSI between your regulator and the keg.
PeeBee alluded to it slightly when talking about check valves for a beer engine but it’s quite common for people to use NRV’s (to protect a regulator) or gas manifolds too. The NRV’s tend to be about 1 PSI but the manifolds are nearer 3 PSI in the pressure required to open (basically a harder spring); i’m quoting Kegland on those figures but I have no reason to believe they are not representative for other brands.

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by herms bay » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:47 pm

My beer engine is like a bike pump as i there is no spring on the non-return valve its literally a flap over a mesh. 2 psi will easily pass beer through it and out of the nozzle. Effectively the pipe from the barrel out of the pump is a straight through pipe and apart from Bernoulli's principal and the overcoming of a flap of nylon. I use an aspirator which in effect is a demand valve and it could possibly auto vent the residual CO2.
I will measure the 2 psi at the barrel itself.
I am not using non return valves just JG taps on air lines.

I have just posted this if any of you are 3D printers https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5141832 its a Beer Tap Handle that can have a label on it.
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herms bay
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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by herms bay » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:11 pm

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by PeeBee » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:36 pm

herms bay wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:47 pm
My beer engine is like a bike pump as i there is no spring on the non-return valve its literally a flap over a mesh. 2 psi will easily pass beer through it and out of the nozzle. Effectively the pipe from the barrel out of the pump is a straight through pipe and apart from Bernoulli's principal and the overcoming of a flap of nylon. I use an aspirator which in effect is a demand valve and it could possibly auto vent the residual CO2. ...
All hand-pumps use the same "valves", the valves have no springs. Someone in the past came up with an inspired name for them ... they are called "flapper valves". And there is no way that they can hold back 2psi, so a "demand valve" gets fitted. The demand valve is on the beer-line and works "wet". An "aspirator" (aka. "breather") is on the gas-line and operates "dry" as do any regulators. "Breathers" can be thought of as zero psi (psig if you are fussy) regulators. "Breathers do not "vent", hence you still need a method of "venting" whether it be the traditional "soft spile" or the bubble-counters" I use.

I suspect you know this, but the wording in your post might mislead some folk (i.e. mentioning aspirators and demand valves in the same breath).

I've described "breathers" as "zero psi regulators" but to work they will require a sniff of negative pressure. If "zero psi" would worry Corny keg users, mention of "negative pressure" (suction) probably induces panic. But it's not the only reason I recommend LPG regulators; Home-brew kept under a "breather" will eventually contain less than 1 "volume" of CO2, Some folk will be quite happy with this, but the majority will not, whether they use Corny kegs or something better. So I'll stick to recommending LPG regulators.

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

herms bay
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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by herms bay » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:08 pm

I think we are violently agreeing, When scuba diving the demand valve or second stage is a piece of technology we all understand.
Hmm.
Are you saying if I put a "demand valve" (wet) this will create enough resistance to the 2 PSI but when pulling with the beer engine it will be overcome and therfore I only need the 2 PSI to keep 1.1% vols in beer and dispense and can ignore putting an aspirator at all.
Where do I get this demand (wet) valve?

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by MashBag » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:54 am

... Or why do you need a beer engine. Just use a beer tap?

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Eric
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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by Eric » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:26 am

MashBag wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:54 am
... Or why do you need a beer engine. Just use a beer tap?
Absolutely, for any who can't tell the difference.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by PeeBee » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:26 am

MashBag wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:54 am
... Or why do you need a beer engine. Just use a beer tap?
You have a point, where did the beer engine slip in?

Probably me, I assumed a beer engine because a tap with an aspirator will ... not let any beer out at all! But if you keep the 2psi of pressure on, as you mentioned earlier, a tap would work.

But I did notice something the other day: I have the 20-300mbar variants of those Cleese LPG regulators and do turn them up to 300mbar (4psi) for some stout/porters. It's to ensure I get a head. As these stouts/porters are strong (1.060-1.070) and high finishing gravity and I do not notice the extra carbonation. But these strong beers may start to get a bit tired in the pump because they don't get drunk enough to keep up a good flow through the pump. Sooooo: The stout/porter goes on tap for a few days while the pump is cleaned. (Still with me? Haven't fallen asleep?). The stout/porter on tap a 4psi is flippin' fizzy! I hadn't appreciated how much gas (i.e. a lot!) a hand-pump forces out of the beer. Hence the voluminous heads and smooth flavour?

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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Re: Now I have capacity, casking ales?

Post by PeeBee » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:10 pm

herms bay wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:08 pm
... Are you saying if I put a "demand valve" (wet) this will create enough resistance to the 2 PSI but when pulling with the beer engine it will be overcome and therfore I only need the 2 PSI to keep 1.1% vols in beer and dispense and can ignore putting an aspirator at all.
Where do I get this demand (wet) valve?
No. The demand valve won't provide "resistance", it'll stop the flow dead! Hand-pump demand valves will hold back 5psi of pressurised beer (some later designs hold back 30psi, gawd knows what the hand-pump makes of that!). The beer-pump/engine easily produces enough "negative pressure" (suction) to trigger the opening of the demand valve.

The big difference with these "wet" demand valves and your diver's valve, is the divers valve helps "regulate" the gas pressure the diver receives. When a hand-pump ("wet") demand valve opens the hand pump is hit pretty much immediately with the pressure behind the beer because no pressure is absorbed by the beer (you can't compress, or decompress, liquids - it's hydraulics).

Keeping the 2psi on while serving is perfectly fine to me. You might prefer less, hence I like those Cleese LPG regulators 'cos they canbe turned down to 3/4psi if you prefer. As mentioned in my last post, the hand-pump itself is responsible for knocking out a lot (more than I had appreciated a few weeks back) of excess CO2. I'd have mentioned this earlier, but somehow missed the drawing you posted a while ago.

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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