Plate or Counter flow chiller for the new rig?

[setmash]

Thanks I will check them out. Ive got some feedback regarding performance of their various chillers. With my paltry 10 liters a minute of coolant water the chillers can do the following.

8C Cooling Water input, cooled wort output (25C - will be 22 C by the time its settled in FV)
B3-36A 20 plate = 2.5 gpm
B3-36A 30 plate = 2.7 gpm
B3-52A 20 plate = 2.72 gpm
B3-95A 20 plate = 2.95 gpm

19C Cooling Water input
B3-36A 20 plate = 1.6 gpm
B3-36A 30 plate = 1.8 gpm
B3-52A 20 plate = 2 gpm
B3-95A 20 plate = 2.3 gpm

Im going to go for the B3-52A 20 inches long 4.4 inches wide (if i can fit it on my rig) which means it should chill my 10 gallon batch (38 liters) in 3.7 minutes and only use 37 liters of water (at 8C water input temp) or 5 mins and use 50 liters of water (at 19C summer input temp) which means i can store in the HLT (capacity 63 liters) and recycle for cleaning the chiller and RIMs. I will monitor the output temp with the BCS - ultimately if I rig up an electronic variable valve the BCS (or another controller) could vary the valve to keep a constant output temp from the plate chiller in to the FV.

[Aleman]

I haven't been able to get into my shed to measure my chiller, but the one you are going for sounds very similar

[Mr. Dripping]

Could I have a link or some further info for the one you are considering please setmash? Thanks.

[setmash]

@ Aleman, thanks for looking and thanks for raising the whole plate size v Kw points. Like most things brewing lots of research is needed and you never end up with the thing you originally thought you would !! If i had bought the 50 plate chiller it would of been a wast of money. As it turns out i do need an expensive chiller as my coolant flow rate is so naff. Something i never thought to check until you mentioned it !!

@ Mr Dripping these guys have all the chillers you could ever need http://www.dudadiesel.com/heat_exchangers.php look down towards the bottom. You will see the two Ive been considering. If your flow rate is not as bad as mine then the B3-36A 20 is the dogs for the money. $ rate is great right now, with shipping that chiller will cost $220 = £133 + import duty and £8 Post office rip off fee. Choos the half inch males.

I will buy the bigger B3 52A 20, it only comes with 1 inch NPT connectors (worth noting) $304 with shipping = £183 + import duty and the £8 fecking quid. i.e. about £210 quid ish.

If you dont fancy the 1 inch connectors and the B3-36A 20 is too small then the B3-36A 30 is the one to go for. It will cost a bit less than the B3 52A 20 and performs almost as well.

If your coolant flow rate is half decent then Mr Lard sells a cracking chiller (125Kw) for £85...I would of bought that.

My crappy flow rate forces me to the B3 52A, upside is the waste water will come out at over 60 C and I will re-use for cleaning the whole kit

[Mr. Dripping]

Thanks for that setmash
My flow rate from my outside tap is pretty decent, so I think I will contact Mr. Lard.
Thanks again for your help.

[scotia]

Contact UK Heat exchangers tell them how much wart and how quickly you want it cooled and to what temp they will work out the coirrect size of exchanger you need. If you want send me an email with the details and I shall contact them. Alternatively you could fit one this size and forget about calculations you may not have enough capacity to fill the exchanger though.

[setmash]

Now thats a heat exchanger !! Ive sent you a mail - many thanks

[bigrichlock]

Why the big rush?

Everything i do i try to mimic commercial brewery's an example being - a 10bbl brewery to will be looking at 40-60min ish to knock out, if you scale a plate chiller for 10gallon you should in my opinion be looking at about 30-40m on your home brew set up.

I remember watching a pod cast with Vinnie from Russian River Brewery and he stated in the video he knocks out on his pilot More Beer set up in the same time as he does on he full sized brewery as he wants to mirror the process exactly and get the same relative residence time on the hops as he does on the big kit.

That and you will struggle to get 50L of wort through a plate chiller in 3.7 min and if you do you will be pumping the hell out of it (you will prob need more than a march or chugger pump) and there is this wonderful thing called turbulent flow which wont do your wort any good at all and if your filter gets blocked you may even manage to get some cavitation if your lucky!

Rich

[setmash]

My brew size is 38 liters or approx 10 US gallons - my chuggers will pump 22 liters per min (im aiming for 7.5 liters /min through the HEX). 10BBL is 1600 liters ?? to chill in 60 mins (knock out ?) is 27 liters a minute through the HEX, faster than Im trying to achieve (scaling 1600 to 38 at 60 mins would be a chill time of 1.42 mins way faster that my 5 min target - {38/1600}*60). Im not massively bothered about speed ,however, i want to dump the waste water in to my HLT at a good temperature, and the HLT has a max capacity of 60 liters. I dont want to have to start to ditch waste water as that will involve an extra process - and my goal is to save time (without harming the taste !). I want to use the waste water that will be dumped in the HLT for cleaning the brewery so i need the HEX to pump out 60+ oC < 50 liters. So it needs to be uber efficient with my poor coolant flow rate .....if i go for something less efficient I will have too much waste water.

Now you've thrown a curve ball...are you saying beer tastes better if its chilled slower ???? Im still pretty inexperienced and thought the quicker the chill the better ? Is there an optimum chill time - hop residence ?

I can hear a can of wiggly worms opening.

[Fil]

+1 been wanting to type similar for a day or so but didnt want to piss on your parade, after all u build the brewery u have what u want in it, but personally i would aim for a 10-15min chilling time, gives u 5 mins to set up and ensure good flows of beer and coolant and ensure the wort is aerating adequately. 5 mins to chill and take in the beauty of your system at work and 5 mins to finish up ensuring minimal loss in hose pipes.. as your pitching straight away ( or should be able to) if its anything like the end on my brewdays, its all hands at cleaning rinsing and stacking to dry as soon as the yeast is pitched;)

a poor domestic water pressure could be supplemented or replaced by running a pump from a 200l barrel of water or 2 u filled slowly from the tap during the boil.

[bigrichlock]

Setmash,

Cooling quickly to pitching temp (brewers call this knocking out) is very important as you want a good cold break. I am constantly working on my brewing process and my aim is to replicate the brewing process of what are in my opinion the best brewery's in the UK and further afield.

This means if i am trying to produce a beer similar to theirs i will try and replicate every step of their brewing process from water profile, mash temps, boil times/whirlpool time, and knock out times, i will us the same yeast if possible and follow there fermentation profile if known, and if required i will dry hop accordingly.

The idea im trying to get across is that it is all relative to the size of the batch and relatively speaking you are going to be knocking out up to 10x time faster than any craft brewery in the country.

The latest studies show that the largest amount of hop flavor comes from the post boil hop steep or the whirlpool, and by knocking out quickly or maybe i should say relatively quickly all you are doing is reducing the hop steeping/residence time compared to craft brewery's who are arguable producing the most flavorsome beers in the country?

As for cooling rates if you are using a plate chiller time is pretty much irrelevant (there are limits to this statement) the beer goes in at near 100deg, comes out at 20deg and if the volume of the plate chiller is 0.5L (im guessing here) and if the throughput it 1L every 6 seconds (3.7 min is 222seconds divide by 38L = 5.8 or 6 seconds), then your beer is cooled from 100deg to 20deg in 3 seconds! if you change this to a 40 min knockout period then 100deg to 20deg in 30 seconds this is still more than quick enough.

As for water usage, slow down the cold water input, (ignoring system losses) the amount of water required is the same irrelevant of time taken, but your brewday will take 30mins longer, time for a beer and to sit back and relax and enjoy looking at your equipment for that little bit longer

Just my thoughts and like many things there is loads of different ways to do it

Rich

[setmash]

Really appreciate this advice. I certainly dont want to do anything to harm the flavour. What is the ideal Knock out time for 38 liters ?? 10 mins, 15 mins, 20 mins ?


So what do i do guys ?

1. Build my own CFC and whirlpool back in to the Copper until 20 oC - no need for trub filter, can re-use some of the hot water for back flush.

2. Use a smaller Plate chiller (any ideas on size ?) and dump straight in to FV - at a slower rate

[bigrichlock]

What ever option you go for your not going to harm the flavor you will just get slightly different flavors from different processes.

Either a CFC or a plate chiller will do the job, its just about personal preference, as for size of the plate chiller just get one that is big enough for the job, it does not have to be used flat out.

My personal choice was to go for a plate chiller, their affordable and effective, the largest batches i can do are 130L so a CFC is a bit of a non starter purely due to the size of CFC required.

Some one else may say that what i have said is a load of rubbish and just chill it as fast as you can, and there is noting wrong with that approach, its the beauty of brewing the choice is yours

Rich

[Fil]

if speed is what u want go for it, my perspective is more from the extra outlay to achieve a reduction in brewtime measured in minutes, and if too fast could be quite a hectic procedure requiring split second timing for intervention. after 6hour+ at the brewface 10 mins is neither here or there.. just an opinion, but i bet the grain n hop stocks could do with the extra dosh saved not buying a huge beast

must admit i like the ability to stick a brush thru a straight pipe chiller and am suspicious of hidden deposits in plate chillers, i think orlando posted a pic of a deposit stain under his PC after oven sanitising and after a rigorous cleaning and rinsing regime something had dripped out and left a nasty mark??

for my own kit, anything not needing me constantly stirring the wort over an immersion coil for 30 mins is a winner

[setmash]

Thanks guys. With the new brewery I should be at the brewface for about 3 hours before the chill (60 min mash & boil) so im not short on time. Ive been looking at my immersion chiller it has an 8mm OD (from looking at it in the near dark of the cellar). I could solder some wire on to it to aid turbulation and slip some wide ID (16mm) silicon hose over to make my own CFC and then whirlpool back in to the kettle to see how i get on. I will look at that option this week. Has anyone ever turned an immersion chiller in to a CFC ?