Get married you never know.. You might like it... If not just pass her on part used to your mates. Hmmm.guypettigrew wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:47 amNow that's a really persuasive argument in favour of splashing out £250 to try the Grainfather mill.McMullan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:07 amMill-wise, buy one or you'll never really know. All the complaints about mills seem to come from those who don't have one. If I end up with brewing kit I don't really use I generally flog it to someone who will get use out of it. I'm sure you could make a small space for little malt mill.
Grainfather grain mill
Re: Grainfather grain mill
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guypettigrew
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Re: Grainfather grain mill
That's horrible, misogynistic, unreformed, a complete misrepresentation of what McM said, totally irrelevant and, despite having enjoyed your earlier posts, makes me wonder where your brain is at.
Guy
Re: Grainfather grain mill
Guy, Yeah it was rubbish. Sorry. I hesitated after I typed it.
The 'Hmm' was to demonstrate the extreme but it failed.
I was trying to think of an extreme event to express what I saw as the flawed logic, as a reason to buy.
Should I delete it?
The 'Hmm' was to demonstrate the extreme but it failed.
I was trying to think of an extreme event to express what I saw as the flawed logic, as a reason to buy.
Should I delete it?
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McMullan
Re: Grainfather grain mill
Another thing you might want to consider, Guy, is how a mill - milling uncrushed grain yourself - helps better standardise recipes. For example, is 100g uncrushed black malt really equivalent to 100g pre-crushed black malt that's been settling in a bag for several months? I suspect mixing it up sufficiently actually takes more effort and time than milling 100g black malt (with your base malt*) yourself. Amplify this for base malts. Say I've got 5kg of pre-crushed MO in a bag and I want 3kg for a recipe. It's actually going to take an awful lot of effort to mix the 5kg of pre-crushed MO to get a uniform mix that compares with 3kg of uncrushed MO.
*It isn’t necessary for home brewers to mill different grains separately. This is a newly propagated myth (pretending to be busting a myth, ironically) that has more to do with a sales pitch than anything else. With very few exceptions, like rye and wheat malt, barley malts of pretty much all types (excluding flaked, of course) can be mixed together and milled together. You’ll find too little spread (range) in the size across barley malts to warrant separate millings, at our home brew scales. You optimise the crush for the base malt. When you think about it, that’s actually what matters. Getting a just-cracked crush for the main element of your grist. Right? The blatantly obvious benefits of promoting a good filter bed in a mash, that is. Turning a small % of your grist (speciality malts) into flour is pretty much inconsequential. Right? The biggest difference in malted barley grain size is observed between a base, like, say, MO, and a highly roasted type, like, say, black malt, which is a little bit smaller, but not enough that it needs to be milled separately. Everything else in between is surprising comparable.
Of course, if you’re a maltster supplying ready-crushed malt you’re going to mill each malt separately, for a very very obvious reason. And while you’re at it, you’ll likely make very very small adjustments to the mill gap, assuming you're milling tonnes, to optimise the crack for your process more than anything else (unless a big brewery is paying enough for its own specified crush). Anyway, the idea this commercial setting (no pun intended) scales down to home brew is very questionable, especially when it pretends to be busting a myth that never was.
If you do decide to invest in a grain mill, spend your money on one that is actually adjustable across the whole range between settings. I’m a bit skeptical about the very limited settings on the expensive Grainfather mill.
Most importantly, though, at the end of the day, I’m not biased by a desire to sell you specific items of any kind. What you get from me is an honest opinion based on something a shit lot more informed than a sales pitch. I’m not a reinvented double-glazing salesman, empowering himself to exploit others, like D knob-cheese Heath
*It isn’t necessary for home brewers to mill different grains separately. This is a newly propagated myth (pretending to be busting a myth, ironically) that has more to do with a sales pitch than anything else. With very few exceptions, like rye and wheat malt, barley malts of pretty much all types (excluding flaked, of course) can be mixed together and milled together. You’ll find too little spread (range) in the size across barley malts to warrant separate millings, at our home brew scales. You optimise the crush for the base malt. When you think about it, that’s actually what matters. Getting a just-cracked crush for the main element of your grist. Right? The blatantly obvious benefits of promoting a good filter bed in a mash, that is. Turning a small % of your grist (speciality malts) into flour is pretty much inconsequential. Right? The biggest difference in malted barley grain size is observed between a base, like, say, MO, and a highly roasted type, like, say, black malt, which is a little bit smaller, but not enough that it needs to be milled separately. Everything else in between is surprising comparable.
Of course, if you’re a maltster supplying ready-crushed malt you’re going to mill each malt separately, for a very very obvious reason. And while you’re at it, you’ll likely make very very small adjustments to the mill gap, assuming you're milling tonnes, to optimise the crack for your process more than anything else (unless a big brewery is paying enough for its own specified crush). Anyway, the idea this commercial setting (no pun intended) scales down to home brew is very questionable, especially when it pretends to be busting a myth that never was.
If you do decide to invest in a grain mill, spend your money on one that is actually adjustable across the whole range between settings. I’m a bit skeptical about the very limited settings on the expensive Grainfather mill.
Most importantly, though, at the end of the day, I’m not biased by a desire to sell you specific items of any kind. What you get from me is an honest opinion based on something a shit lot more informed than a sales pitch. I’m not a reinvented double-glazing salesman, empowering himself to exploit others, like D knob-cheese Heath
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guypettigrew
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Re: Grainfather grain mill
Thanks McM, helps me with getting closer to a decision.
At the beginning my thought was to use a mill only for the speciality grains and continue buying pre crushed MO from MM. It always gives me a good run off, never had a stuck mash and always a crystal clear wort. I've probably tempted fate now, just about to start today's brew!
Thinking about your posts and Eric's it seems as though milling the MO as well as the speciality grains is the best way to go. Especially given the slow drop in efficiency I noted in an earlier post. It'll be interesting to see what today's efficiency is.
At one point I was looking at this 3 roller mill from Kegland. I've got a variable speed drill with a 13mm chuck, but the lock button for the trigger doesn't work at low speeds, plus I've no idea how fast 200 rpm is. Setting the roller gap also feels a bit difficult and I'm not keen on a trial and error approach when a stuck mash or an inefficient extraction is the result of a mistake.
So, taking everything into account, the appeal of the Grainfather is its ease of use. Yes, you lose some flexibility on the crush size, but that would probably be offset by the benefits of using fresh grain every brew and, as you said, not having to worry about shaking the bag around to get the flour, grain innards and husks evenly distributed.
Nothing will be bought for a few weeks, so plenty of time for more thought.
Guy
At the beginning my thought was to use a mill only for the speciality grains and continue buying pre crushed MO from MM. It always gives me a good run off, never had a stuck mash and always a crystal clear wort. I've probably tempted fate now, just about to start today's brew!
Thinking about your posts and Eric's it seems as though milling the MO as well as the speciality grains is the best way to go. Especially given the slow drop in efficiency I noted in an earlier post. It'll be interesting to see what today's efficiency is.
At one point I was looking at this 3 roller mill from Kegland. I've got a variable speed drill with a 13mm chuck, but the lock button for the trigger doesn't work at low speeds, plus I've no idea how fast 200 rpm is. Setting the roller gap also feels a bit difficult and I'm not keen on a trial and error approach when a stuck mash or an inefficient extraction is the result of a mistake.
So, taking everything into account, the appeal of the Grainfather is its ease of use. Yes, you lose some flexibility on the crush size, but that would probably be offset by the benefits of using fresh grain every brew and, as you said, not having to worry about shaking the bag around to get the flour, grain innards and husks evenly distributed.
Nothing will be bought for a few weeks, so plenty of time for more thought.
Guy
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McMullan
Re: Grainfather grain mill
It's super easy to change the gap. Just use one of these. I decided to go for a 2-roller mill, to keep things simple. At our level a 2-roller mill is fine. A 3-roller is just as easy to set, there's still only one gap to set. The 3rd roller is more to do with controlling the 'feed', which is important when milling bigger commercial batches of grain. If you really wanted to go for a 3-roller, I'd avoid the cheap ones. You might be better off getting a better quality 2-roller, especially if you want something with a smaller footprint.
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Eric
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Re: Grainfather grain mill
Guy, it sounds very much like you are ready for a mill.
Greatest extraction can be achieved by the finest crush while best quality beer and mash performance is achieved when the hull is just cracked open to largely remain in tact. So don't expect an instant change for the better. It will take time as all major advancements can and often do.
A set of feeler gauges as John suggests are all you need to set a mill. surely you're of the age when you set the tappets on your car, or the points gap after cleaning them on a carborundum stone? I started setting my mill in thou's of an inch, but don't know where I last put my imperial feelers and now continue in metric. Put a couple of cup-fulls of grain in the mill and turn it by hand and examining the result in detail. I just crank mine by hand, but will in time motorise it in time. 200 rpm is about 3 turns per second, so shouldn't be difficult to control. You can always go more slowly.
Greatest extraction can be achieved by the finest crush while best quality beer and mash performance is achieved when the hull is just cracked open to largely remain in tact. So don't expect an instant change for the better. It will take time as all major advancements can and often do.
A set of feeler gauges as John suggests are all you need to set a mill. surely you're of the age when you set the tappets on your car, or the points gap after cleaning them on a carborundum stone? I started setting my mill in thou's of an inch, but don't know where I last put my imperial feelers and now continue in metric. Put a couple of cup-fulls of grain in the mill and turn it by hand and examining the result in detail. I just crank mine by hand, but will in time motorise it in time. 200 rpm is about 3 turns per second, so shouldn't be difficult to control. You can always go more slowly.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.
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guypettigrew
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Re: Grainfather grain mill
Ah yes. Used to have an MGB GT which I regularly worked on. The old feeler gauges are long gone, nice to see they can still be bought.Eric wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:30 pmsurely you're of the age when you set the tappets on your car, or the points gap after cleaning them on a carborundum stone? I started setting my mill in thou's of an inch, but don't know where I last put my imperial feelers and now continue in metric. Put a couple of cup-fulls of grain in the mill and turn it by hand and examining the result in detail. I just crank mine by hand, but will in time motorise it in time. 200 rpm is about 3 turns per second, so shouldn't be difficult to control. You can always go more slowly.
Yours and McM's posts are convincing me a mill is a good idea.
Do you hand crank yours, Eric, or use a drill?
Guy
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guypettigrew
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Re: Grainfather grain mill
Today's brew had a mash efficiency of about 83%. A mil definitely seems worth trying.
Still like the 'plug and play' nature of the Grainfather.
Guy
Still like the 'plug and play' nature of the Grainfather.
Guy
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Eric
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Re: Grainfather grain mill
Efficiency is secondary. That's not an excuse that is often given for low efficiency, for I have no excuse for not having an efficient system. Simply that it can be essential to take a step or two back to get on the right track should one have been diverted from a perfect route or as near to it as one might get.guypettigrew wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:00 pmToday's brew had a mash efficiency of about 83%. A mil definitely seems worth trying.
Still like the 'plug and play' nature of the Grainfather.
Guy
Let's be frank, 83% is good for mash efficiency and excellent if overall. But milling grains is more essential when the target is quality and I feel confident you'll be taking the plunge quite soon.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.
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guypettigrew
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Re: Grainfather grain mill
Absolutely agree, Eric.
If all I wanted was higher SG then I'd use more grains or add sugar, simple! The interesting thing about the mash efficiency figure is how it drops with time using the 5 x 5kg bags of MO ordered from MM. Starting at 90% in early May, to 83% three and a half months later. Even though the grain is stored in closed plastic bags, as supplied by MM, until use.
It's probably ridiculous to equate this drop with an equivalent drop in beer quality, but there must be some correlation.
Hence my increasing interest in getting a mill.
Guy
If all I wanted was higher SG then I'd use more grains or add sugar, simple! The interesting thing about the mash efficiency figure is how it drops with time using the 5 x 5kg bags of MO ordered from MM. Starting at 90% in early May, to 83% three and a half months later. Even though the grain is stored in closed plastic bags, as supplied by MM, until use.
It's probably ridiculous to equate this drop with an equivalent drop in beer quality, but there must be some correlation.
Hence my increasing interest in getting a mill.
Guy
Re: Grainfather grain mill
I for one will be interested to see the results.guypettigrew wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:00 am
It's probably ridiculous to equate this drop with an equivalent drop in beer quality, but there must be some correlation.
Re: Grainfather grain mill
So… here we are a year later … did you get one??
I’m interested though still stuck in the shiny new toy vs useful space. I don’t brew that often so seems rather excessive. Flip side is my 25kg sacks often last over 12 months and seem to resemble the hoover bag towards the bottom - maybe I should just ditch and buy new or the 5x5 option from TMM.
I’m interested though still stuck in the shiny new toy vs useful space. I don’t brew that often so seems rather excessive. Flip side is my 25kg sacks often last over 12 months and seem to resemble the hoover bag towards the bottom - maybe I should just ditch and buy new or the 5x5 option from TMM.
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guypettigrew
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Re: Grainfather grain mill
Yes, I did. And I'm very pleased with it. I now buy my base malt uncrushed in 5 x 5 kg bags from Malt Miller. All other grains also uncrushed.Pigster wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:09 amSo… here we are a year later … did you get one??
I’m interested though still stuck in the shiny new toy vs useful space. I don’t brew that often so seems rather excessive. Flip side is my 25kg sacks often last over 12 months and seem to resemble the hoover bag towards the bottom - maybe I should just ditch and buy new or the 5x5 option from TMM.
The mill takes just a few minutes to crush 5-6 kg of grain. The hot liquor is run into the mash tun and then I crush the grain as the liquor cools down. Probably less than 15 minutes from crushing to mashing!
The hopper on the mill holds about 1 kg of grain. I thought this might be a problem, but it isn't. The uncrushed grain is weighed out the day before brew day into a bucket. It's easy enough to use a scoop to feed the grain into the hopper.
Using the mill has raised my mash efficiency (calculated using Graham Wheeler's Beer Engine) to between 95% and 100%, and overall efficiency to 80% to 85%. Previously these were both about 10 percentage points lower. There is also no drop off in efficiency over the 4-5 months it takes me to use 25 kg, unlike when I bought the grain ready crushed.
Has it improved the taste of the beer? I think so, but that's so subjective it's not anything I can demonstrate.
Guy