Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
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finsuk
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
Hi Ken, Been thinking do you think i will need a heater and thermostat what is your opinion cheers and if so can you recommend any
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Kev888
- So far gone I'm on the way back again!
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- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
- Location: Derbyshire, UK
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
Hi,
I did use the fridge for a while with just its inbuilt thermostat, as in this particular case I found that its warmest setting was a little warmer than their specs suggested. Even then though, the beer was a little too cold for my taste with British style beer so I added the external thermostat/controller.
This also let me add the pipe heater (which was from toolstation). I need one because in winter my shed sometimes goes much cooler than the 13c I've set the external fridge controller/thermostat at, if yours is to be in a room thats always warmer you wouldn't need a heater. Of course, I could have just let it get cooler in winter, but I don't like the beer too cold, and getting too cold would mess with the carbonation levels as well.
One helpful aspect of temperature stability is to keep carbonation constant; since cool beer absorbes more CO2 than warm beer. If my fridge got colder than intended in winter, then the beer would absorb more CO2 when the gas is turned on, which could over-carbonate it. Then if the beer later warmed back up to the proper temperature the CO2 would try to leave the beer, creating excessive foam when serving.
I used an ATC-800+ temperature controller as the external thermostat because I had a spare one, however if you were buying specially I'd probably recommend the STC-1000 controller - available cheaply from ebay or amazon. Do a search on the forum and you'll find loads of builds using them (also look for keggerators, as there are a fair few build threads too). Take some care though, there are look-alikes or flavours of this controller that can control heating and cooling devices 'but not at the same time' - i.e you have to choose one or the other; if in doubt best to buy the same thing that someone else already has. Or if you don't like wiring, a chap on here called troublebrewing set up a shop called cedaronics that does pre-wired controllers (amongst other things).
I don't have any pictures of the regulator, I'll see if I get chance to take one later, but you'll see many other peoples if you search for keggerators. You can get Y or T push-fit connectors to let you split the regulated gas line to more than one keg, but ideally (and certainly if you want different pressures) you can use a number of separate secondary regulators to individually control different gas lines (obviously at more expense, though). Mine is like that, though it came as a sort of integrated package rather than separate regulators - not seen any like that on sale for a long time now though.
Cheers
Kev
I did use the fridge for a while with just its inbuilt thermostat, as in this particular case I found that its warmest setting was a little warmer than their specs suggested. Even then though, the beer was a little too cold for my taste with British style beer so I added the external thermostat/controller.
This also let me add the pipe heater (which was from toolstation). I need one because in winter my shed sometimes goes much cooler than the 13c I've set the external fridge controller/thermostat at, if yours is to be in a room thats always warmer you wouldn't need a heater. Of course, I could have just let it get cooler in winter, but I don't like the beer too cold, and getting too cold would mess with the carbonation levels as well.
One helpful aspect of temperature stability is to keep carbonation constant; since cool beer absorbes more CO2 than warm beer. If my fridge got colder than intended in winter, then the beer would absorb more CO2 when the gas is turned on, which could over-carbonate it. Then if the beer later warmed back up to the proper temperature the CO2 would try to leave the beer, creating excessive foam when serving.
I used an ATC-800+ temperature controller as the external thermostat because I had a spare one, however if you were buying specially I'd probably recommend the STC-1000 controller - available cheaply from ebay or amazon. Do a search on the forum and you'll find loads of builds using them (also look for keggerators, as there are a fair few build threads too). Take some care though, there are look-alikes or flavours of this controller that can control heating and cooling devices 'but not at the same time' - i.e you have to choose one or the other; if in doubt best to buy the same thing that someone else already has. Or if you don't like wiring, a chap on here called troublebrewing set up a shop called cedaronics that does pre-wired controllers (amongst other things).
I don't have any pictures of the regulator, I'll see if I get chance to take one later, but you'll see many other peoples if you search for keggerators. You can get Y or T push-fit connectors to let you split the regulated gas line to more than one keg, but ideally (and certainly if you want different pressures) you can use a number of separate secondary regulators to individually control different gas lines (obviously at more expense, though). Mine is like that, though it came as a sort of integrated package rather than separate regulators - not seen any like that on sale for a long time now though.
Cheers
Kev
Kev
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schford
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
[quote="Kev888"]I've been asked how this has gone so (with apologies for the quality of some of the photos) here's an update:
I made temporary shelf, to see how it worked out - two cornies fit in the bottom and four on the shelf. Needless to say, my temporary shelf is becoming quite long term...
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... erator.jpg[/img]
My cornies were standard 'Norm' ones back in the day, and measure around 21cm (8.25") diameter by 63.5cm (25") tall.
Enough headroom above the bottom two cornies
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... arance.jpg[/img]
And just about enough for the top ones - although I've only shown two kegs here, four will fit in the top.
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... arance.jpg[/img]
Due to the extra reach in limited space, the back two corny's disconnects could be bl@@dy awkward to lever on and off if they decide to be stubborn, however things have improved a lot with the use of lubricant around the post O-ring and the ball lock's ball-bearings.
An under-side view of the trial wooden shelf; I sat it on top of the glass shelf, with a small bracket poking down behind it to stop the wood part sliding forward, and some legs at the front.
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... _shelf.jpg[/img]
As it has worked out well, I'm intending to make a better one at some point - with more support and a beer/starsan proof material or finish.
Heres the pipe heater and two holes that my beer and gas lines exit through. I use a python line as my taps are some distance from the fridge, but I see no reason why the taps couldn't be door mounted.
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... -holes.jpg[/img]
The cooling seems to be mostly the back face of the fridge and I didn't hit anything important making the holes through the compressor hump, though they will almost certainly have invalidated any guarantee. the Indesit brand probably isn't the world leader in terms of reliability but its been fine so far - the shed its located in is well insulated though, and doesn't seem to get too damp or cold in winter.
I haven't documented the electronic thermostat as there are already hundreds just like it on the forum.
Overall, its all gone really well so far - probably 'different' rather than better or worse than a chest freezer design. I have to say that even with lubricant on the disconnects its not as easy to connect/disconnect them as it is with a chest freezer but the footprint of the fridge is a lot smaller so I'm content with that trade-off. Lifting 20kg+ full kegs to the top shelf is okay for me, again probably very comparable to lifting one over the edge of an extended freezer; there's a need to shuffle them about to get the back ones in and out, but then there's no particular leaning over involved so my back prefers that particular trade-off.
Cheers
Kev[/quote]
I found this forum searching for info on Kegs and fridges
- but alas the pictures are missing anyone got any ideas as I am thinking of getting this fridge - cheers!
I made temporary shelf, to see how it worked out - two cornies fit in the bottom and four on the shelf. Needless to say, my temporary shelf is becoming quite long term...
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... erator.jpg[/img]
My cornies were standard 'Norm' ones back in the day, and measure around 21cm (8.25") diameter by 63.5cm (25") tall.
Enough headroom above the bottom two cornies
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... arance.jpg[/img]
And just about enough for the top ones - although I've only shown two kegs here, four will fit in the top.
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... arance.jpg[/img]
Due to the extra reach in limited space, the back two corny's disconnects could be bl@@dy awkward to lever on and off if they decide to be stubborn, however things have improved a lot with the use of lubricant around the post O-ring and the ball lock's ball-bearings.
An under-side view of the trial wooden shelf; I sat it on top of the glass shelf, with a small bracket poking down behind it to stop the wood part sliding forward, and some legs at the front.
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... _shelf.jpg[/img]
As it has worked out well, I'm intending to make a better one at some point - with more support and a beer/starsan proof material or finish.
Heres the pipe heater and two holes that my beer and gas lines exit through. I use a python line as my taps are some distance from the fridge, but I see no reason why the taps couldn't be door mounted.
[img]http://www.zen110223.zen.co.uk/external ... -holes.jpg[/img]
The cooling seems to be mostly the back face of the fridge and I didn't hit anything important making the holes through the compressor hump, though they will almost certainly have invalidated any guarantee. the Indesit brand probably isn't the world leader in terms of reliability but its been fine so far - the shed its located in is well insulated though, and doesn't seem to get too damp or cold in winter.
I haven't documented the electronic thermostat as there are already hundreds just like it on the forum.
Overall, its all gone really well so far - probably 'different' rather than better or worse than a chest freezer design. I have to say that even with lubricant on the disconnects its not as easy to connect/disconnect them as it is with a chest freezer but the footprint of the fridge is a lot smaller so I'm content with that trade-off. Lifting 20kg+ full kegs to the top shelf is okay for me, again probably very comparable to lifting one over the edge of an extended freezer; there's a need to shuffle them about to get the back ones in and out, but then there's no particular leaning over involved so my back prefers that particular trade-off.
Cheers
Kev[/quote]
I found this forum searching for info on Kegs and fridges
- but alas the pictures are missing anyone got any ideas as I am thinking of getting this fridge - cheers!-
Kev888
- So far gone I'm on the way back again!
- Posts: 7701
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
- Location: Derbyshire, UK
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
Apologies for the pics vanishing; I lost some free web space a while ago on which they were hosted. I've updated the links in this and this original post so hopefully the pictures should be back.
Here are another few pics of the holes and temporary shelf:
Needless to say, the temporary shelf became permanent as I never updated it
But thats largely because it seemed to work fairly well (aside from the paint not being very beer/wear resistant). In use the fridge was pretty good, I would have liked a little more headroom as sometimes dealing with stubborn disconnects on the top-rear cornies could be a bit cramped, but the small footprint (compared to chest freezers) made this small trade-off worthwhile for me, so much so that I ended up getting a second fridge.
Hope thats useful,
Kev
Here are another few pics of the holes and temporary shelf:
Needless to say, the temporary shelf became permanent as I never updated it
But thats largely because it seemed to work fairly well (aside from the paint not being very beer/wear resistant). In use the fridge was pretty good, I would have liked a little more headroom as sometimes dealing with stubborn disconnects on the top-rear cornies could be a bit cramped, but the small footprint (compared to chest freezers) made this small trade-off worthwhile for me, so much so that I ended up getting a second fridge.Hope thats useful,
Kev
Kev
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schford
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
Thanks so much for letting me see what you did
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preynolds
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
This is a valuable resource for a small footprint keggerator in the UK, thanks for following it through Kev! 
These fridges are going for just over £200 just now, so I think I'll pick one up for a 4 keg setup, with door mounted taps, and space for bottles above and below the 4. Maybe I missed it, but how do you store your CO2? Just outside the fridge?
These fridges are going for just over £200 just now, so I think I'll pick one up for a 4 keg setup, with door mounted taps, and space for bottles above and below the 4. Maybe I missed it, but how do you store your CO2? Just outside the fridge?
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Kev888
- So far gone I'm on the way back again!
- Posts: 7701
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
- Location: Derbyshire, UK
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
Hi, (and welcome)
Yes my CO2 bottle was outside the fridge, positioned against the wall with a chain and hook to stop it falling over (which can be dangerous). It wasn't actually that close to the fridge, the gas lines ran for a few meters.
In my case I also used a gas management board to give different pressures for different beers, but depending on circumstances you could just use a gas manifold and/or several 'T' or 'Y' fittings. Depending on the state of your cornies though, keep in mind that the more of them you have hooked up at once the more you increase the chance of gas leaks. I tended to switch off the gas between sessions, unless I was force carbonating. Some management boards and manifolds have taps on the outlet, which can allow one to easily leave on only selected lines/kegs.
Sadly I don't have these any more, or on fact most of my kit, having moved into a small flat I no longer have the space. But the setup worked very well until I moved, the only niggle being that a few more inches in height would have made the top level corny disconnects easier to put on and take off.
Cheers
Kev
Yes my CO2 bottle was outside the fridge, positioned against the wall with a chain and hook to stop it falling over (which can be dangerous). It wasn't actually that close to the fridge, the gas lines ran for a few meters.
In my case I also used a gas management board to give different pressures for different beers, but depending on circumstances you could just use a gas manifold and/or several 'T' or 'Y' fittings. Depending on the state of your cornies though, keep in mind that the more of them you have hooked up at once the more you increase the chance of gas leaks. I tended to switch off the gas between sessions, unless I was force carbonating. Some management boards and manifolds have taps on the outlet, which can allow one to easily leave on only selected lines/kegs.
Sadly I don't have these any more, or on fact most of my kit, having moved into a small flat I no longer have the space. But the setup worked very well until I moved, the only niggle being that a few more inches in height would have made the top level corny disconnects easier to put on and take off.
Cheers
Kev
Kev
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sunshine
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
@ Kev888
Hi - I have just bought one of these Indesit fridges and just joined to say a big thanks for your post.
Was struggling with the shelf solution and now hoping to use your patented Kev design. Also hoping to pop some fans in there and perhaps a few holes for air movement ?
Will pop in somepics when I have done something with it.
Cheers !
Hi - I have just bought one of these Indesit fridges and just joined to say a big thanks for your post.
Was struggling with the shelf solution and now hoping to use your patented Kev design. Also hoping to pop some fans in there and perhaps a few holes for air movement ?
Will pop in somepics when I have done something with it.
Cheers !
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Kev888
- So far gone I'm on the way back again!
- Posts: 7701
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
- Location: Derbyshire, UK
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
Hello and welcome!
Heh, a bit embarrassing really, the shelf design was just a temporary lash up, not the best job in the world. But it did seem to work fine for me, so I guess thats no bad thing if it helps give you some ideas. Best of luck with yours, and certainly post some pics!
I use a fan in the fridge that cooled the fermenter, but didn't seem to need one in the keggerator. Though it wouldn't hurt, provided it was a low power PC type - bigger ones can cause more heat.
BTW, you may have to make several posts before the forum will show your pictures (it helps stop people joining and instantly posting dodgy stuff). But someone more established can quote your post for you if you haven't totted up a few by then.
Heh, a bit embarrassing really, the shelf design was just a temporary lash up, not the best job in the world. But it did seem to work fine for me, so I guess thats no bad thing if it helps give you some ideas. Best of luck with yours, and certainly post some pics!
I use a fan in the fridge that cooled the fermenter, but didn't seem to need one in the keggerator. Though it wouldn't hurt, provided it was a low power PC type - bigger ones can cause more heat.
BTW, you may have to make several posts before the forum will show your pictures (it helps stop people joining and instantly posting dodgy stuff). But someone more established can quote your post for you if you haven't totted up a few by then.
Kev
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sunshine
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
I have zero DIY skills so all I can hope for is to match it at best!
Its really useful that you have shown that you can drill holes in it if you need to.
The existing shelf holders are a bonkers design on that fridge which is unfortunate.
When I take delivery of my buckets (wine only alas) I will have a go at this woodworking lark and pop up some pics.
Cheers.
Its really useful that you have shown that you can drill holes in it if you need to.
The existing shelf holders are a bonkers design on that fridge which is unfortunate.
When I take delivery of my buckets (wine only alas) I will have a go at this woodworking lark and pop up some pics.
Cheers.
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Kev888
- So far gone I'm on the way back again!
- Posts: 7701
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
- Location: Derbyshire, UK
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
I was quite careful to drill in places where there were no cooling plates or pipes, so take care where you make holes. Most of the back wall of the fridge is one large cooling surface for instance.
I can't remember now, but (as its a strategy I've used several times) is possible that I would have carefully cut and piggled away plastic and insulation from the outside of the fridge, to ensure there was nothing important buried in it where the hole was to go.
I can't remember now, but (as its a strategy I've used several times) is possible that I would have carefully cut and piggled away plastic and insulation from the outside of the fridge, to ensure there was nothing important buried in it where the hole was to go.
Kev
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sunshine
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
So I spent about a day playing (well - tossing and turning in my sleep) with the design eventually I had a bit of an eureka moment, avoided the table !
Need to raise it another 8 cm which I will do by padding the shelves with wood. This will allow me to have either 2 x fermonsters on the go with bubbly traps (for 30 bottle wine kits) , or 4 x 2 gallon (11.xL) PET carboys (for Wows).
If a proper member could quote this for pics that would be spiffing... I got 15mm x 69mm x 2400 in B and Q - fit the slats perfectly. The shelf is just basic chipboard, will upgrade later to something fancier once I ensure I can actually brew stuff.
Second shelf and pics to follow tomorrow.
[img]http://imgur.com/a/VJwix[/img]
Need to raise it another 8 cm which I will do by padding the shelves with wood. This will allow me to have either 2 x fermonsters on the go with bubbly traps (for 30 bottle wine kits) , or 4 x 2 gallon (11.xL) PET carboys (for Wows).
If a proper member could quote this for pics that would be spiffing... I got 15mm x 69mm x 2400 in B and Q - fit the slats perfectly. The shelf is just basic chipboard, will upgrade later to something fancier once I ensure I can actually brew stuff.
Second shelf and pics to follow tomorrow.
[img]http://imgur.com/a/VJwix[/img]
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Kev888
- So far gone I'm on the way back again!
- Posts: 7701
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
- Location: Derbyshire, UK
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
Looks promising! Especially if strong enough, though relying on the garden cane may be a bit optimistic?
I tried quoting your post but the images didn't work because the forum needs the actual image URL rather than the page its on. I did try entering that for you but the images are so huge that only a part of them was then visible in the thread; not sure if theres a better way (I'm not familiar with imgur) or if you need to re-size them. For now though, here is a link to your image page
I tried quoting your post but the images didn't work because the forum needs the actual image URL rather than the page its on. I did try entering that for you but the images are so huge that only a part of them was then visible in the thread; not sure if theres a better way (I'm not familiar with imgur) or if you need to re-size them. For now though, here is a link to your image page
Kev
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sunshine
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
I will figure out how to host those images later - they seem to have change imgur a bit for the worse.
(The cane was just there for measuring purposes as its v difficult to measure with a tape back there - the shelf actually sits on the plastic fridge support at the back.)
(The cane was just there for measuring purposes as its v difficult to measure with a tape back there - the shelf actually sits on the plastic fridge support at the back.)
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sunshine
Re: Corny capacity of (current) fridges and freezers
Some more images.
https://s3.postimg.org/4027fc6bn/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/bhbeujvur/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/yk1xtpxc3/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/ob9gnw9ab/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/uq8hkkg03/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/r7who6f43/image.jpg
Still waiting on every other piece of kit but at least everything looks like it will fit.
Still need to raise the upper shelf a few inches but I can use the supports at the back (new plank for that) and front and put spacers on them.
The hole at back has enough width for the wire for the heater but not for anything else (probe and psu for fan) so I will cut the cable and join it with a ip66 joiner to some lamp wire. Then I expect to get all three cables into the hole.
The upper shelf has a sizeable gap between its end and the door so no problem with airflow to the top.
Only concern at moment is I glued the brackets for the 65w tube to the wall - decided to do it a different way (sit on floor) and couldn't actually remove them so will leave for now.
https://s3.postimg.org/4027fc6bn/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/bhbeujvur/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/yk1xtpxc3/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/ob9gnw9ab/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/uq8hkkg03/image.jpg
https://s3.postimg.org/r7who6f43/image.jpg
Still waiting on every other piece of kit but at least everything looks like it will fit.
Still need to raise the upper shelf a few inches but I can use the supports at the back (new plank for that) and front and put spacers on them.
The hole at back has enough width for the wire for the heater but not for anything else (probe and psu for fan) so I will cut the cable and join it with a ip66 joiner to some lamp wire. Then I expect to get all three cables into the hole.
The upper shelf has a sizeable gap between its end and the door so no problem with airflow to the top.
Only concern at moment is I glued the brackets for the 65w tube to the wall - decided to do it a different way (sit on floor) and couldn't actually remove them so will leave for now.