King Keg - converting CO2 feed

[madprofessor]

Hi,

Apologies if this has been asked many times before, but I've searched around and am still a bit in the dark with this.

I have 3 King Kegs which I've been pressurising with the 240g Hambleton Bard cylinders. I'd like to buy the right bits so that I can pressurise them all from a single large cylinder instead (small/medium fire extinguisher size).

Any idea where I'd need to look for fittings? Currently, I don't even know where to start.

I'd like to end up with a system where I have flexible piping coming from the CO2 cylinder and branching off to each keg, and an inline valve per keg so that I can manually inject some more CO2 when required. I've already got a pressure gauge on each keg, but a separate (adjustable, preferably) pressure release valve would be a worthwhile thing to add too.

Is this a crazy idea, or have other people done this before? Does anyone have any pointers about what I should get and where I should get it?

Cheers,
Kingsley.

[chris2012]

Do you know what the max pressure they can hold is?

[madprofessor]

Hi,

I'm not sure what the absolute max is, but I would probably be looking to set the pressure relief at 11 - 12psi. I've seen one go up to 13psi and it held but I wouldn't like to push them that far. I find the best pressure to keep them at is 9 - 10psi. If I keep them much over 10psi then when I pour the beer I get more froth than liquid.

Maybe it would be wise if I had a pressure regulator in the feed?

[Dave S]

Hi,

I'm not sure what the absolute max is, but I would probably be looking to set the pressure relief at 11 - 12psi. I've seen one go up to 13psi and it held but I wouldn't like to push them that far. I find the best pressure to keep them at is 9 - 10psi. If I keep them much over 10psi then when I pour the beer I get more froth than liquid.

Maybe it would be wise if I had a pressure regulator in the feed?

I've heard the figure of 10 psi mentioned as the max pressure barrels can take but have never tested that. I can't see any reason why you couldn't do this, except you'd have to really keep an eye on the delivered pressure so you don't squirt too much in. you'll need a gas distribution board of some sort and you'd have to replace the S30 valves with, say John Guest bulk head fitting and connect to your regulators via 3/8" or 3/16" beer line. Maybe even better you could replace the valves with Quick Disconnects like those used on Corny Kegs.

[madprofessor]

Hi,

Thanks for that. Maybe if I can get a regulator to supply at 10psi then that would avoid disasters.

Thanks for the heads up on John Guest and the quick connects on the corny kegs. I didn't even knew such things existed, but it sounds like it might be just what I'm after.

[Brighteyebeer]

I used a motley collection of KK, budget, Boots and Sparklets (remember those?) PBs as pressure kegs for a couple of years, with pretty good results. My recollection is that budget barrels are 10 psi max; 15 for the others. I connected a pub gas cylinder via a regulator and Widget World S30 adaptor. The latter were inexpensive plastic fittings, but are no longer readily available. These brass versions cost a fair bit more:

http://brewingathome.co.uk/product/midg ... rrel-hose/

As I recall, the M/W fitting went into 5/16 pipe, and I used a 5/16 push-fit to 3/8 stem adapter into a 3/8 shutoff valve. Here's a pic - the topmost budget barrel is connected to a shutoff valve on the wall, which connects to the cylinder reg:


The barrel then connected to the cooling system, and onto the beer engine, but please ignore that - not strictly relevant

As Dave S suggests below, a JG bulkhead connector might be a simpler/cheaper option. I think 3/8 is the nearest size to the S30 valve hole in the lid. Then a short length of 3/8 gas/beer line, and a 3/8 shutoff valve. Close it to allow the beer to secondary ferment and condition. Open after connecting the gas cylinder for serving. Simples!

I used a basic welding regulator for this setup. It can output up to 100psi, which would make a PB go BANG! long before the S30's relief valve could relieve the pressure. I simply adjusted the reg's pressure very carefully. A bit of common sense goes a long way - I have lots of explosive gas at home, for cooking and heating. I've managed not to blow the place up yet!

Adding a low pressure gauge inline helped quite a lot. It allowed greater precision in setting the pressure:


Hope that's some help.

Cheers,
Chris

[madprofessor]

Thanks Chris for that most excellent and informative reply.

Sometimes it's just useful to know what things are called so that you know what to google for, but the extra info you've given and the pictures are very useful.

I see you've pushed plastic pipe into what look like John Guest fittings. Do these seal OK, or do you get leakage?

And I have to ask - what is a beer engine?

Cheers,
Kingsley.

[Dave S]

The Beer Engine is the hand pump you see in the picture.

[Brighteyebeer]

The Beer Engine is the hand pump you see in the picture.

S'right - hand pump/beer engine/BE. JG fittings are pretty good, and give a reliable seal. They might become problematic after frequent disconnection/reconnection, but I haven't experienced this. Just something to watch for, is all.

In my neck of the woods, there's no LHBS to get S30 cylinders from. Exchanging them means the cost of a refill and 2 delivery charges. I get pub size cylinders from a local cash and carry for a couple of quid more than the total cost involved in exchanging S30s. So 240g, or 6.35kg for an extra couple of quid? It's a no-brainer really.

Some other suggests include - finding CO2 suppliers locally. Most suppliers refill by exchanging full for empty, so you need an empty cylinder that they will accept. No point buying a bargain cylinder online, only to find you can't get a refill when it's empty.
When you've setup, gas-up your KK, and turn off the cylinder. If the 'out' gauge on your reg drops to 0, you have a leak to find and cure. Leave the cylinder on, and there's no indication of a leak, whilst the cylinder empties in days or weeks. (Bitter experience, that one )
You will run out of CO2 at an awkward time, so make provision with another source of CO2 - maybe a 2nd cylinder on standby. I don't have room for 2, so I have a sodastream cylinder tucked away. An adaptor connects it to my reg, so I can continue to gas-up my kegs, and get a refill for the main cylinder when convenient.

Hope some of that helps.

Cheers,

Chris

[madprofessor]

Hi,

Beer engine - ah OK. I have to admit, I do like the look of that

I've found a supplier (http://www.stonehelm.co.uk/) who can sell all of the John Guest fittings as well as the regulators, and have been emailing them. They say they have some bulkhead connectors which may do the trick, though that would mean getting rid of the KK valve and its overpressure release - something I could keep if I use the connectors you mentioned in your first reply. That said, the KK pressure relief seems a bit hit and miss anyway, and I've had to resort to wrapping an elastic band around them now so that the kegs can pressurise properly. I had one letting out anything over 6psi which isn't enough really.

That said, this looks like it may do the same thing: http://www.stonehelm.co.uk/Equipment/Be ... letAdaptor

Yes I agree that it's daft to keep on using the 240g cylinders if you can get a 6.35kg one for similar money. My local brew shop (where I used to get the refills from) has just shut and gone online only which gives me even more of a reason to make the switch. I'll see if I can get all of this in place before all of my 240g cylinders run out

I can see myself getting a 4th keg so may as well buy enough to drive 4. I'm finding that the beer improves if left for a few months, so I need some others to be ready for drinking in the meantime.

Do you lubricate the pipes before pushing them into the John Guest fittings? I'm thinking a bit of vaseline on the pipe might help the seal, as well as making it easier to remove and refit later without damaging the O-ring.

Cheers,
Kingsley.

[JontyR]

Hi Kingsley,

I used to have a king keg connected to a pub co2 bottle using the widget world S30 connector that Chris mentioned in his posts. one thing to note is that the s30 isn't a 1 way valve when it has the connector fitted so you either need to keep the gas connected or fit an inline john guest on off valve if you want to disconnect the gas at all.

Anyway, I don't need the S30 connector now as I no longer use king kegs. If you send me your address and promise to put a quid in the next MS society or McMillan collection box you pass, I'll gladly post it to you.

[MadMarble]

That's a cracking offer! I'm sure madprofessor will snap your hand off for that JontyR.

I've been searching on and off for a solution to this problem too. I know the widget world connection is no longer made. Interesting to hear of the John Guest Bulkhead fitting, I haven't come across that one before.

I've got a King Keg top tap and a Hambleton Bard pressure barrel too. I am progressing to cornies and have the gas plus one corny right now. Still need the pressure barrels for maintaining a good stock of beer until I can replace with more cornies Could do with linking the gas up to the pressure barrels some how. That King Keg eats gas out of an S30 bottle once the beer gets below the tap.

More googling me thinks!Great answers as ever. Got to love this forum

[madprofessor]

Hi,

Thanks JontyR, yes that is a very kind offer and I probably will take you up on that; someone in our village collects for McMillan so I could pop in there. Why does the S30 valve cease to become a 1 way valve when that adaptor is connected?

I'm waiting to hear back from the chap at Stomehelm for my latest email, but he has been uncharacteristically slow to reply. I'm wondering if it's because I asked him what sets his primary regulators (http://www.stonehelm.co.uk/Equipment/Be ... yWallMount) apart from much cheaper ones I found on ebay, eg http://tinyurl.com/q55ep56 or http://tinyurl.com/mlrxoxo . I'm quite happy to be told his are better but I need to know why if I'm going to pay 3 times the price for one. I gather I'll need a secondary regulator as well as I don't think the primaries are intended to be particularly adjustable.

That's the trouble with buying online - sometimes it helps to have stuff in front of you so that you can hold them in your hands to get a feel for what's what.

I know people rave about the Cornelius kegs but what puts me off these is their size because I can't get a 40 pint brew into one. Why would a Cornelius be markedly better than, say, one of these? http://shop.crusaderkegsandcasks.com/st ... s-10-c.asp . Again, it's one of those things that's hard to appreciate when you only have pictures to go on.

Cheers,
Kingsley.

[JontyR]

Hi Kingsley, ...I'm having to cast my mind back because its a good few years since I used them, but if I recall, when you screw the adaptor onto the s30 valve it depresses the pin on the valve and keeps it in the open position, hence it will let gas both ways. If you want this adaptor so you can at least see it, I'm more than happy to post it - I'm moving house soon so it'd end up in the bin when I start clearing out.

[madprofessor]

Hi,

There is no pin to depress in the valves I have on my kegs so I don't think mine would do the same thing.

I will gladly use your adaptor though - so thanks very much for that. I'll pop a couple of quid in the McMillan box the next time I pass. Meanwhile, I'll PM you my address

Cheers,
Kingsley.