Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

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cerbera84
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Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by cerbera84 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:45 pm

Hi guys,

Like most on here, I don't brew as often as I would like. And for this, naturally I attribute blame to the wife, child and dog...

Anyway, they're not going anywhere anytime soon so I am thinking about converting one of my 50L Bergland pots to an eBIAB type affair, in all likelihood copying a Grainfather type setup.

I have a 50L pot fitted with a Peco 2.4kw element, and I would aim for 23L batch sizes. I have purchased a 12L stainless steel bucket today, and plan to make this my malt pipe.

Just looking for any suggestions on things to do/not to do really. I'm not planning on cloning a Braumeister at this stage, unless someone can convince me.... more a TubeDinoz type job from youtube...

My 50L pot has a sight glass and numerous holes already, so looking at including PT100 probe, whirlpool port, sparge/recirc port, ball valve/bazooka type affair.

Fire away
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Planning: BrewEasy system build; possibly a Wychwood Hobgoblin Gold clone
Fermenting: Simcoe SMASH
Drinking: Cascade Centennial Pale

aamcle
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by aamcle » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:20 pm

I'm just moving from recirculating Biab to basic Biab just to save the hassle with pumps and PIDs. I've found that control is an issue with changes in volume and rate of flow through the malt tube/bag impacting the PIDs ability to maintain temperatures.

Wort is taken preferentially from the volumes under and around the MP and that makes a difference especially with changing flows through the grain.

I think but cannot prove that getting the system up to a given temperature and then controlling it with a RIMS would work better.

Recirculation doesn't really gain you anything, you can still step mash without it so perhaps you might think about plain vanilla Biab, the worst thing seems to be the lack of things to geek out on, on Arduino controlled widgets and shinny goodness .......


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cerbera84
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by cerbera84 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:11 pm

thanks aamcle. I do feel the need to geek out though... plus I already have most of the components.

ImageUntitled by Ben, control box

I have a 12v adapter for a fan inside the control box already so would make sense to add pump controls for the little solar pump to it.

I do have the choice of placing the temp probe through the base of the pot (failed bottom drain) or through the side of the pot, would have to double check but I doubt as to whether the side placement would even capture wort running off the malt pipe.

As there's an electric element in the pot, could this setup be considered eBIAB with RIMS anyway?

I'm considering a full volume/no sparge approach with this new setup, with recirculation during the mash and whirlpooling during the chill.

I would be left with two setups, this eBIAB thing and a 2V brewstand (for larger/higher ABV beers, for when time allows to do things like preheat MT and slowly fly sparge).
Planning: BrewEasy system build; possibly a Wychwood Hobgoblin Gold clone
Fermenting: Simcoe SMASH
Drinking: Cascade Centennial Pale

Fil
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by Fil » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:19 am

have fun with the build..

while a herms or rims system can be a fun build, the tweaking to perfect flow/temps etc can be a pita and ruin a brewdays fun, if considering a full volume mash type set up the liquid volume will represent a good store of latent heat so imho you could easily get away with insulating the pot to retain heat without adding the complication of active heating and dispersal during the mash.

ps to make life easy it might be an idea to source a plate of perforated SS to sit in the bucket bottom and then punch out a few 20mm holes with qmax punch to drain the liquor? drilling lots of didy holes will get very tiresome pretty quickly ..
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cerbera84
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by cerbera84 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:29 am

cheers Fil, will look into insulation. I am keen on the recirculation though, so am prepared for the pain of it. I've been recirculating on my 3V setup with HERMS recently.

just found this guy over on ausssiehomebrewer
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/68324 ... rnal-rims/

I'd pretty much be copying his setup, just debating whether it would be necessary to use the whirlpool port and the recirculation port at the same time to prevent the wort scorching on the RIMS.

thanks for the suggestion of perforated mesh Fil but I might copy the slits approach in the bottom of the bucket. Seems to work ok, could always add the mesh later if it's letting anything through.
Planning: BrewEasy system build; possibly a Wychwood Hobgoblin Gold clone
Fermenting: Simcoe SMASH
Drinking: Cascade Centennial Pale

aamcle
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by aamcle » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:27 am

If it's BIAB all you need (depending) is a tray to keep the bag off the element, it's the bag that drains rather than a false bottom.

If you recirculate and use a malt pipe the the bottom can be made of SS mesh but getting a sufficient flow rate through the grain bed can be tricky.
Either the MP needs to be slightly raised or the pump rate high as there must be a significant difference in level between the liquid in the MP and that in the outer vessel.
I found it too difficult to balance so instead of a solid sided MP I support the BIAB bag with a basket made of 1" SS mesh.

Going back to trad BIAB a tray is usually used to keep the bag off the element but alternatively the bag can simply be raised up above the element while some heat is added.


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cerbera84
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by cerbera84 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:36 am

quick question - I bought a 12 litre bucket yesterday, I haven't got enough grain to check but any estimate on how much grain this will hold when functioning as a malt pipe? there is an option of a 16 litre bucket so I could go back today and change it (before I butcher it!)

any ideas?
Planning: BrewEasy system build; possibly a Wychwood Hobgoblin Gold clone
Fermenting: Simcoe SMASH
Drinking: Cascade Centennial Pale

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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by vacant » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:10 am

When I've drained the mash in my 33ltr thermopot, I seem to remember the grain comes well over a third the way up i.e. over 11 ltr. When I BIAB the classic way I read the bag should be nearly as big as the boiler to allow the wort to circulate around the grains. I don't think a 12 ltr bucket will be any good for a standard 23 ltr brew length. :(
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by aamcle » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:02 am

For mash volume try :- http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml near the bottom of the page.


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cerbera84
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by cerbera84 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:05 pm

cheers guys. bucket has been exchanged for the 16litre.

TubeDinoz uses a 12 litre bucket and he reckons his max is 4kg, so I'm hoping the 16 litre will cope with 5kg. That is probably my max at 23 litre batch size, I'll just shorten the brew length on the bigger beers or just use the 2V setup.
Planning: BrewEasy system build; possibly a Wychwood Hobgoblin Gold clone
Fermenting: Simcoe SMASH
Drinking: Cascade Centennial Pale

Matt in Birdham
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by Matt in Birdham » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:39 pm

You don't state this explicitly, but it sounds as if your motivation is a quicker brew day for smaller volume batches?

If so, then like you (and many others, I suspect), I have also gone this way. I sold off most of my double-batch capable gear before moving back from Aus and went to single batch electric here. Having rebuilt and reconfigured everything recently, I seriously considered a recirculating BIAB system, but ended up going for a "true" 2 vessel system instead, which gives me most of the advantages of BIAB. Reasons I didn't go BIAB in the end were mostly because I would have needed yet more kit (kettle insulation, bag, hoist) and worries about the recirc around a bag.

My current rig is a standard cooler tun and a simple HERMS rig. I full volume mash and heat all of the liquor using the herms rig on recirc, so I can get up in the morning, switch it in and forget about it until the kids have gone to school - then it's ready waiting. Full volume mash means no sparge, and I also no longer mash out. I simply stop the pump, change the hose from recirc to kettle and turn it back on. Tun is usually drained in under 5 minutes, so it's very quick and my brew day is much shorter as a result. Just another possibility if you happen to have that sort of kit lying around..

cerbera84
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by cerbera84 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:28 pm

cheers Matt - yeah all this messing about is aimed at a quicker brew day. I've seen your setup (makes more sense now you've explained your HERMS rig) - I had fitted a HERMS coil inside the donor pot, so for my 2V setup I may steal your idea and fit the HERMS coil in an asparagus steamer pot or similar and use that to heat the strike water. What element do you use in your HERMS?

I'm interested in your lack of mashout - I was thinking that I might keep that step but I'd have to test how long it took to get up to the required temps. Have you noticed any difference since you skipped the mashout?

I just stripped the donor pot and had a rummage through my spares box, came up with this rough setup:

ImageUntitled by Ben, on Flickr

would just need to bend a nice copper whirlpool arm, and fit a bazooka tube to the bottom ball valve. And also cover up the bottom drain hole, but thinking of fitting my other PT100 sensor to it so I can measure the difference between the two sensors.

ImageUntitled by Ben, on Flickr

Malt pipe in situ, just imagine the silicone hose is longer and goes into the malt pipe!

ImageUntitled by Ben, on Flickr

Side view

So cost wise - £20 for the 16 litre stainless bucket and say £6 for a bazooka tube ?
Planning: BrewEasy system build; possibly a Wychwood Hobgoblin Gold clone
Fermenting: Simcoe SMASH
Drinking: Cascade Centennial Pale

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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by Matt in Birdham » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:52 am

cerbera84 wrote:cheers Matt - yeah all this messing about is aimed at a quicker brew day. I've seen your setup (makes more sense now you've explained your HERMS rig) - I had fitted a HERMS coil inside the donor pot, so for my 2V setup I may steal your idea and fit the HERMS coil in an asparagus steamer pot or similar and use that to heat the strike water. What element do you use in your HERMS?

I'm interested in your lack of mashout - I was thinking that I might keep that step but I'd have to test how long it took to get up to the required temps. Have you noticed any difference since you skipped the mashout?
I use a cheapo 2.4kw element taken from a £3 kettle. Absolutely no problems with it so far in maybe 40 brews. Of course its not the fastest at heating the mash liquor, but the beauty of the setup is that you can just switch it on and leave it, and it will hold your water at temp for as long as you want (in fact I've done 72 hour sous-vide short-ribs in there..). So although that might be 1-1.5 hrs, I don't really count it as part of my brew day - just run out to the shed, switch it on and forget about it until I'm ready (I haven't quite got the nerve to do it on a timer, in case the pump loses its prime overnight..).

I used to bring the whole mash up to mash-out temps (75C), but this resulted in the herms water getting >90C, and (over time) some deformation of my pipe, which gets noticeable soft at those temps. The herms tube is just 110mm drain pipe, and rated for 80C I think. I've really haven't noticed any difference in dropping the mash-out. I think any benefit that you get from making the wort less viscous is minimal when you are full-volume mashing, as the wort is already very thin, and as far as stopping conversion is concerned, that is probably happening faster now than it was before, because wort is pumped straight into the kettle, which is put on the max (induction) as soon as the first runnings hit the bottom. So all in, not mashing out and not sparging saves a lot of time and even more effort, as my method before involved heating the sparge water on my induction and monitoring the temp, before jugging over the the tun - I never had a dedicated hot liquor tank, which might have made things easier.

Obviously it's not quite as compact as single vessel, but still fairly small and me it offers the best of both worlds as I keep my insulated mash tun, which recircs very nicely, and get the speed-up of full-volume mashing/no mash-out. Plus I can get the MLT and pump cleaned up while the boil is underway - this pic shows the hose connected to the return port, for pumping over to the kettle:

Image

cerbera84
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by cerbera84 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:01 pm

thanks Matt, you've given me some good ideas for my 2V setup.

Came up with a solution of how to suspend the malt pipe slightly higher than the pot without spending any money - had a 90cm length of SS304 rod hidden away so cut it into two with the bluntest hacksaw blade known to man and hey presto:
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Planning: BrewEasy system build; possibly a Wychwood Hobgoblin Gold clone
Fermenting: Simcoe SMASH
Drinking: Cascade Centennial Pale

dbambrick996
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Re: Switch from 3V to eBIAB ?

Post by dbambrick996 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:23 pm

I recently built a single vessel system, it was great fun. I built an Ardbir controller as well, system works great and is easy to use. Don't know if I can link to another forum but
Link is below to my build. Please remove if it's not appropriate :
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/foru ... ic=14901.0

Have fun with it.

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