Best use of controller probes

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Storm Brewing
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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by Storm Brewing » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:53 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:32 pm
Just send him a PM. He'll give you the date he's next running a water analysis and the cost.

You'll need to send him some of your raw water, 500ml is what I send. You'll get the analysis within a few days and can then start using an online water treatment calculator.

Guy
Many thanks

Pete

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by IPA » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:02 am

Try this calculator when you have had your water analysed.
It's on this forum and it is free

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html
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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by Storm Brewing » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:50 am

IPA wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:02 am
Try this calculator when you have had your water analysed.
It's on this forum and it is free

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html
Will do -many thanks

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by Storm Brewing » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:24 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:29 pm
Storm Brewing wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 pm
The 2x refers to 2x one hourly cycles of checking and stirring mash. I've done this on the basis that stirring will spread the heat evenly through the mash otherwise there may be cold spots where mash is less efficient, but if in your experience strike -wrap-lesve for 90 mins delivers 90% efficiency thrn that is certainly worth experimenting with.

Pete
Vigorous stirring when adding the grain to the liquor to get the whole lot to your desired temperature, followed by wrapping it well then giving it a good ignoring for 90 minutes has always suited me. No matter what kit I'm using.

The strike temperature calculator I linked to earlier is incredibly helpful. I put in a desired mash temperature of 67°C and always get a mash temperature of 66°C due to the small temperature losses inevitable when stirring grain into a mash tun with the lid off.

Water treatment to get the right mash pH (something you may not want to get into) is important. Possibly even more important from an efficiency point of view is sparge rate. From your previous posts you've clearly got this right if you're getting 80-90% mash efficiency.

Guy
Followed your advice -88% efficiency and i saved myself 90 mins! I guess like many things mashing follows the laws of dininshing returns!

Pete

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by spook100 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:39 pm

Storm Brewing wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:37 pm
I have been reading up on Thermowells - can you recommend one?

Cheers!
I have found that thermowells don't actually work that well in a fermentation fridge because the probe is effectively immersed in a liquid that has a thermal capacity something like 20x that of air. This means that if, for example, your wort is 2C below the required temperature then the heating element will come on and stay on until the wort has reached the required temperature. However, the air surrounding the fermenter will heat up a 20x more quickly and can get very hot indeed if your heater is powerfull. The hot surrounding air continues to heat the wort even after the wort has reached required temperature and the heating has switched off, and you get over-shoot. Of course, your cooling (fridge) then kicks in, but now you get the opposite effect and the air in the fridge ends up too cold and you get overshoot in the opposite direction, which kicks in the heating again, and so on.... The end result is that you waste a lot of energy trying to control wild temperature swings in your fermentation fridge.

I tape a foam insulation pad to the outside of my fermenter and then slide the temperature probe between the pad and the fermenter. This way, the probe is primarily measuring the temperature of the wort through the wall of the fermenter, but is also getting enough feedback from the air, through the insulation pad, to cut off the heating/cooling if the air temperature become substantially different from that of the wort. The result is a much more constant temperature in both the air and the wort.

This is dependant on your setup though: if you have a fermenter with an insulated wall then it wouldn't work; nor would it be effective if you were heating/cooling the wort directly rather than the air around it.
Last edited by spook100 on Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by MashBag » Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:18 am

Absolutely.

Put an rc-4 logger in the thermowell to record the actual temps.

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by orlando » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:09 am

Storm Brewing wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:17 pm
I am now the proud owner of a shiny box fresh Inkbird 308 but could do with some informed advice best use of the probe?

One of the Inkbirds uses will be to control the temperature of my mash but reading around the subject, there appears to be conflicting views on how best to achieve this? The obvious method (to me) would be to drop the probe directly into the mash but there seems to be a lack of confidence in some quarters that despite its supposed waterproof credentials, total immersion can lead to failure of the probe? Is it possibly the case that this was a problem a few years ago and Inkbird have rectified it??

I have read somewhere (possibly the ‘other’ forum :oops: ) that one method is to tape the probe to the outside of the mash tun and insulate it from outside temperature with a sponge or similar. At the moment this function is performed in my burco/cygnet boiler. I experimented with the probe taped to the outside and insulated and cross checked against readings taken with a conventional lab thermometer.

Not withstanding the wide variation in temperatures in the tun itself (before stirring) there was a wider variation (and a delay in temperature change) for the probe fixed to the outside. The lower temp value recorded on the outside of the tun has the obvious danger of overcooking the malt as the controller will be slow to respond to overheating. I am therefore loathe to go down this route until I have more experience or at least received some first hand advice!!

So two question:
1. Is it safe to put the inkbird probe directly into the mash tun (or FV) later ?
2. Has anybody experience of using controller probes on the outside of FV / mash tun and is it successful?

Many thanks!!

Pete :?
Have you researched RIMS/HERMS as a means of more precise control of mash temps?
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by Storm Brewing » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:38 pm

spook100 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:39 pm
Storm Brewing wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:37 pm
I have been reading up on Thermowells - can you recommend one?

Cheers!
I have found that thermowells don't actually work that well in a fermentation fridge because the probe is effectively immersed in a liquid that has a thermal capacity something like 20x that of air. This means that if, for example, your wort is 2C below the required temperature then the heating element will come on and stay on until the wort has reached the required temperature. However, the air surrounding the fermenter will heat up a 20x more quickly and can get very hot indeed if your heater is powerfull. The hot surrounding air continues to heat the wort even after the wort has reached required temperature and the heating has switched off, and you get over-shoot. Of course, your cooling (fridge) then kicks in, but now you get the opposite effect and the air in the fridge ends up too cold and you get overshoot in the opposite direction, which kicks in the heating again, and so on.... The end result is that you waste a lot of energy trying to control wild temperature swings in your fermentation fridge.

I tape a foam insulation pad to the outside of my fermenter and then slide the temperature probe between the pad and the fermenter. This way, the probe is primarily measuring the temperature of the wort through the wall of the fermenter, but is also getting enough feedback from the air, through the insulation pad, to cut off the heating/cooling if the air temperature become substantially different from that of the wort. The result is a much more constant temperature in both the air and the wort.

This is dependant on your setup though: if you have a fermenter with an insulated wall then it wouldn't work; nor would it be effective if you were heating/cooling the wort directly rather than the air around it.
Thanks for your insight -very useful. In my (very) limited experience I am wondering if occasionally overiding the automatic controls woiuld help? I know this defeats the object of an automatic controller but disconnecting the heater for example will stop the constant cycling between heating and cooling. For example, 3 days ago i put a batch of pale ale into the FF and set the temp to 18 degrees. The fridge cut ot at 18 but continued to cool the wort down to 17.4. It slowly warmed uo to 18.4 over the course of a day and then the cooling cycle kicked in again. Not the best example i know but if you are prepared to intervene once or twice a day it could do wonders for the shelf life of your FF as constant switching on and off ( i understand) shortens its life?

I am still experimenting but cant help but think that a 1 degree swing either way is not going to be a deal breaker?? In fact irrespective of what the probe (taped to outside of bucket unde a wedge of insulation) is recording I expect there will be variations of temp of at least 1 degree within the bucket. Its just a question of holding the temperature as stable and as near to target as possible?

I have yet to experiment with a thermowell but will at some point. I can see pros and cons for both methodologies but guess its what works for you with the equipment you have to hand.( 'If it ain't broke...........) I don't like to make too many changes at once becasue it makes assessment of any changes to the finished product v diff if there are too many variables.
Cheers

Pete

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by Storm Brewing » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:46 pm

orlando wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:09 am
Storm Brewing wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:17 pm
I am now the proud owner of a shiny box fresh Inkbird 308 but could do with some informed advice best use of the probe?

One of the Inkbirds uses will be to control the temperature of my mash but reading around the subject, there appears to be conflicting views on how best to achieve this? The obvious method (to me) would be to drop the probe directly into the mash but there seems to be a lack of confidence in some quarters that despite its supposed waterproof credentials, total immersion can lead to failure of the probe? Is it possibly the case that this was a problem a few years ago and Inkbird have rectified it??

I have read somewhere (possibly the ‘other’ forum :oops: ) that one method is to tape the probe to the outside of the mash tun and insulate it from outside temperature with a sponge or similar. At the moment this function is performed in my burco/cygnet boiler. I experimented with the probe taped to the outside and insulated and cross checked against readings taken with a conventional lab thermometer.

Not withstanding the wide variation in temperatures in the tun itself (before stirring) there was a wider variation (and a delay in temperature change) for the probe fixed to the outside. The lower temp value recorded on the outside of the tun has the obvious danger of overcooking the malt as the controller will be slow to respond to overheating. I am therefore loathe to go down this route until I have more experience or at least received some first hand advice!!

So two question:
1. Is it safe to put the inkbird probe directly into the mash tun (or FV) later ?
2. Has anybody experience of using controller probes on the outside of FV / mash tun and is it successful?

Many thanks!!

Pete :?
Have you researched RIMS/HERMS as a means of more precise control of mash temps?
I am thinking about it, I am gradually making changes to my processes based on cost/ benefit anaysis!! I am currently achieving 80-90% efficiency with a very basic (but labour intensive) set up and as Guy has pointed out, if i can get my water quality spot-on then this could improve. Insulating the mast tun and leaving for 90 seems to hold temperature but obviously the temerature reading is only a snapshot of what is rerally going on as there are temp variations within a static mash.

What % could i expect with a RIMS?

Cheers

Pete

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by f00b4r » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:03 pm

You can get controllers that will account for the overshoot and use an algorithm to prevent it - Brewblox/BrewPi remix/CraftbeerPi; all based i think on the original BrewPi (now called Brewblox in its new iteration). They vary in price and DIY capability requirements quite a bit but are very effective in keeping a steady temperature using a thermowell.
As fermentation is exothermic, it is a good question as to whether small temperature rises need to be kept in check that tightly; going the other way is a separate question too.

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by orlando » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:24 pm

Storm Brewing wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:46 pm
orlando wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:09 am
Storm Brewing wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:17 pm
I am now the proud owner of a shiny box fresh Inkbird 308 but could do with some informed advice best use of the probe?

One of the Inkbirds uses will be to control the temperature of my mash but reading around the subject, there appears to be conflicting views on how best to achieve this? The obvious method (to me) would be to drop the probe directly into the mash but there seems to be a lack of confidence in some quarters that despite its supposed waterproof credentials, total immersion can lead to failure of the probe? Is it possibly the case that this was a problem a few years ago and Inkbird have rectified it??

I have read somewhere (possibly the ‘other’ forum :oops: ) that one method is to tape the probe to the outside of the mash tun and insulate it from outside temperature with a sponge or similar. At the moment this function is performed in my burco/cygnet boiler. I experimented with the probe taped to the outside and insulated and cross checked against readings taken with a conventional lab thermometer.

Not withstanding the wide variation in temperatures in the tun itself (before stirring) there was a wider variation (and a delay in temperature change) for the probe fixed to the outside. The lower temp value recorded on the outside of the tun has the obvious danger of overcooking the malt as the controller will be slow to respond to overheating. I am therefore loathe to go down this route until I have more experience or at least received some first hand advice!!

So two question:
1. Is it safe to put the inkbird probe directly into the mash tun (or FV) later ?
2. Has anybody experience of using controller probes on the outside of FV / mash tun and is it successful?

Many thanks!!

Pete :?
Have you researched RIMS/HERMS as a means of more precise control of mash temps?
I am thinking about it, I am gradually making changes to my processes based on cost/ benefit anaysis!! I am currently achieving 80-90% efficiency with a very basic (but labour intensive) set up and as Guy has pointed out, if i can get my water quality spot-on then this could improve. Insulating the mast tun and leaving for 90 seems to hold temperature but obviously the temerature reading is only a snapshot of what is rerally going on as there are temp variations within a static mash.

What % could i expect with a RIMS?

Cheers

Pete
The point of RIMS/HERMS is to give you much closer tracking to the temperature you choose to mash at. It employs recirculation of the wort passed by a heat source, usually controlled by a PID. The technicalities are not important here, the point is keeping the mash from varying too much. Water treatment, reducing alkalinity if necessary, ion content, particularly calcium levels, are all important too and will have an effect on not just efficiency, which in my view is not so important, as the control you have over the chemistry taking place. I think it's fair to say that if you get the mash right your pretty much there. A lot of talk in brewing is how can I fix a Beer that's gone wrong, get the mash right and there's a lot less to fix.

Don't worry about efficiency, your concern needs to be directed to control. A 90+% mash that produces poor Beer is no use to anyone. :D
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by spook100 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:20 pm

Storm Brewing wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:38 pm

Thanks for your insight -very useful. In my (very) limited experience I am wondering if occasionally overiding the automatic controls woiuld help? I know this defeats the object of an automatic controller but disconnecting the heater for example will stop the constant cycling between heating and cooling....
Yes, I do this often. If the ambient temp is warmer than the set point in the fridge then disconnect the heating.

It is also unneccessary to directly measure the temperature of the wort expect during active fermentation when the reactions are exothermic. The rest of the time I just let the probe hang loose in the fridge to measure the air temp. The wort temperature will adjust to meet the air temperature.
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Re: Best use of controller probes

Post by MashBag » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:20 am

Storm Brewing wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:38 pm


I am still experimenting but cant help but think that a 1 degree swing either way is not going to be a deal breaker?? In fact irrespective of what the probe (taped to outside of bucket unde a wedge of insulation) is recording I expect there will be variations of temp of at least 1 degree within the bucket. Its just a question of holding the temperature as stable and as near to target as possible?

I have yet to experiment with a thermowell but will at some point. I can see pros and cons for both methodologies but guess its what works for you with the equipment you have to hand.( 'If it ain't broke...........) I don't like to make too many changes at once becasue it makes assessment of any changes to the finished product v diff if there are too many variables.
Cheers

Pete
I think you are bang on. 1c swing imo is close enough.

Temp control does become more and less important depending on the beer style.

Thermowell. I think you will find more accuracy with having the probe attached to the outside of the fv under some insulation. In the middle of the beer, the greater thermal mass of the liquid has to change before switching. Leading to greater overshoots.

£15 for an rc4 data logger will tell you what is going on with the temps 24/7. The software is good too, quickly displaying graphs and exporting data. It will show you the whole thing, not just what was going on when to checked it. Pop it in the thermowell or taped on (away from the heater).

Heating is better low and slow. Bigger elements and different types retain more heat when turned off, which not good for accuracy.

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