HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Meatymc
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HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Meatymc » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:40 pm

Is it old age or am I as thick as I seem to be (bet that's an opening question Wales can't resist!)?

Brief rundown on my (laughable) garage set-up:

BIAB
Bottled gas
Single spur (assume) 13amp electric supply
No water supply or drainage
Single 31L pan
Mash temp controlled by checking temp with thermometer every 15 mins (Winter) 30 mins (Summer) removing quilted insulation box
Dunk sparge
No chill

I've bought 2 second hand 50l pots which have clearly had several uses over the years given the holes in them. Both have taps (with buggered bazooka's), fixed head thermometers and holes for a kettle element - 1 has the burnt out element still in situ, the other a brass blanking plate.

I'm hoping to create a HERMS set-up but am on a very limited budget. I think I need:

Temp probe - PT 100?
Temp controller - REX C100?
Kettle element - 2.5kw?
Immersion coil - stainless?
Pump - 12V Brushless Magnetic Drive Homebrew Pump (Angel Homebrew)
Tubing - silicone
Connectors - where to start

I'm already running lights and a fridge/freezer on the power I have so worried about the load of the element. Having said that I haven't had a problem as yet when also running a 2nd chest freezer and 2 power tools as well - all at the same time.

I'm thinking I could dunk sparge by tranferring the bag to the HLT - swapping the pipes from the Tun tap and chiller to the HLT tap and pumping back to the Tun being careful not to let the HLT/pump run dry obviously.

I have read up on this for hours - honest - but it just isn't going in. Am I anywhere near in what I need/can expect.

Be gentle!!!

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Kev888
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Kev888 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:14 pm

Many questions!
I'm sure you could do this in some way or other, over the pond they even do HERMs with gas. But first.. are you really sure that HERMS is what you want for a BIAB setup?

The power could just about be okay, though depends on the size of the fridge freezer. See if the fridge/freezer has a wattage on the label and add up the wattage of your lights and other stuff that will run simultaneously. You don't necessarily need masses of power for a HERMS if insulation is good and just wanting to maintain temperature. If you're expecting to step up temperature then that might be different, or if you want to heat the HLT quickly. In some cases it may be that a small (well insulated) HERMS pot and perhaps a smaller element may suit a low power situation better than using the HLT, in others the mass of stored heat in the HLT might usefully reduce power needed there and then if you don't need to warm it up quickly..

The REX PIDs are fairly bottom-end and I think some may not take anything but a thermocouple type probe - which the listing descriptions obscure by being generic. Similar for the output, it might offer an SSR/PID type output or just a relay. I'd either do what you can to verify the specific item you find really will work with the PT-100 and has the output you need, or else look at something like an inkbird from a reputable retailer. Are you going to use it to control the pump or the HLT element? If the latter you'll need an SSR (if it has an SSR output) and heatsink.

TBH I'm a bit confused by the exact pipe-swapping details of the dunking process. But in concept it should work, unless prevented by a big herms coil.. or if preferred you could run off and collect wort temporarily in a bucket, allowing sparging to be done in the MT/kettle. Or mash full-volume, of course, if it fits.
Kev

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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by WalesAles » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:46 pm

Meatymc wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:40 pm
Is it old age or am I as thick as I seem to be (bet that's an opening question Wales can't resist!)?
Be gentle!!!
Meaty,
You put yourself down too easily! [-X
You know that you are old, you also imply that you are thick, so there is nothing for me to say here! :D :D

WA

Yeah, couldn`t resist! #-o

Sent from my sofa.

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Meatymc
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Meatymc » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:48 am

WalesAles wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:46 pm
Yeah, couldn`t resist! #-o
In a world of contant flux, we have one constant we can rely on :)

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vacant
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by vacant » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:59 pm

I run a fully unwound 13 amp extension reel from our kitchen cooker circuit to supplement the power from a socket in the car port where I brew.

For example Wilko's do a 13 amp cable (but their reels are only 10 amp, may be enough).
I brew therefore I ... I .... forget

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Meatymc
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Meatymc » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:53 pm

Many thanks for taking the time Kev
Kev888 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:14 pm
But first.. are you really sure that HERMS is what you want for a BIAB setup?
Does BIAB make a difference?
Kev888 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:14 pm
You don't necessarily need masses of power for a HERMS if insulation is good and just wanting to maintain temperature.
That's primarily what I'm after.
Kev888 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:14 pm
If you're expecting to step up temperature then that might be different.
Not really at the moment except to take the sparge water to strike temp although I can do that inside and bring it out to the garage - not ideal I know.
Kev888 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:14 pm
look at something like an inkbird from a reputable retailer.
The more I look into this the more this makes sense - more likely cheaper in the long run
Kev888 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:14 pm
Are you going to use it to control the pump or the HLT element? If the latter you'll need an SSR (if it has an SSR output) and heatsink.
The element - thinking of the pump running continuously (which will no doubt impact on choice of pump). Need to research SSR and heatsinks.
Kev888 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:14 pm
TBH I'm a bit confused by the exact pipe-swapping details of the dunking process.
Whilst mashing the wort is pumped from the base of the mash tun through the coil and back to the top of the mash tun. at the end of the mash, remove the chiller from the HLT, ramp up the heat (if possible) and drop the grain bag in there to 'mash' using a paddle. Then swap the connection from the base of the mash tun to the base of the HLT and pump back into the tun. I think this is probably optomistic but at present, I heat up the (so-called) sparge water in the house, cart it out to the garage and then drop the grain bag into it - anything would be an improvement on that!

Thanks again - all helpful stuff.

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Meatymc
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Meatymc » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:58 pm

vacant wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:59 pm
I run a fully unwound 13 amp extension reel from our kitchen cooker circuit to supplement the power from a socket in the car port where I brew.

For example Wilko's do a 13 amp cable (but their reels are only 10 amp, may be enough).
Cheers vacant - the simplest suggestions are usually the best!

In my last house I wired up a 30 amp supply to the garage but you can't do that DIY these days. Might get a sparkie in to see how much it would cost - me doing the cable laying from the circuit board and digging out the channel to the garage - and him putting a unit in the garage and hooking up. That would allow me to double up on the element power to speed things up.

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Kev888
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:42 pm

Ah I understand better now, yes it seems worth a go. It sounds like decent power might be very much more preferable to you, for the HLT side of things so if a better supply can be arranged than great. If not though, then I'd bet you could manage well enough, you've probably got enough power for at least a modest element even without temporarily switching the fridge off. At one time my whole 100L 3v setup ran off a 13amp spur to the garage, admittedly it wasn't a recirculating system and heating times were a bit tedious, but it all worked as it should; there is always a way, within reason.
Meatymc wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:53 pm
Does BIAB make a difference?
It can in some cases, depending on how the bag is arranged. You really want the recirculating wort to flow fairly evenly through all the grain, which is relatively easy in a tube-like MT pot, or grain pipe (provided things don't stick or clog anyway), but with a bag it might escape out/down the sides instead unless the bag clings well to the side of the pot. Also, a lot of what makes BIAB so valuable is its elegant, effective simplicity, which can start to get undermined by extra complication. I'm not (at all) saying don't do it, just wondered if you'd weighed up the cons against whatever benefits you're looking for, and whether you'll get those in practice.
Kev

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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Meatymc » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:32 pm

Kev888 wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:42 pm
................. just wondered if you'd weighed up the cons against whatever benefits you're looking for, and whether you'll get those in practice.
Since my previous post, I've been reading up on PID's/SSR's etc. I've no qualms in putting the necessary together but it has got me wondering what I'd actually acheive. 'Channeling' also came up which you've highlighted so just expecting the liquid to permeate in an even way is highly unlikely.

My primary issue is I'm a tight-arse. I was trying to squeeze every last drop out of a basic 31L pan which only has a tap. Keeping an eye on mashing temp is a question of taking off the quilted box, towels, coffee bean sack and lid to stick a thermometer in to see how it's doing - and by doing so, have more of an effect on the temperature than leaving well alone. Hence looking seriously at this.

As I no chill I'm keen to get the wort into the cube as soon as possible to avoid infection so it's a good excuse to run practically everything out of the kettle (cos I've a limited amount of liqour in the 1st place.

However, I've now bought (2nd hand) 2 x 50L pans with temp gauges plus a 100L pan - only as part of the package. Either of the 50L pans enable me to check the temp 'externally' - only then needing to take everything off if necessary. Maybe, if we're dropping a degree or so, a quick 10 second blast of gas would resolve that - trial and error providing the 'bag' is protected. Being able to have more than enough wort (by tweaking the grain bill slightly) should enable me to only take off the clearest runnings and perhaps having a litre of boiling water - to scald the cube.

Christ this is a long bloody post but I think it's clarified my mind to see where I go with these new pans before jumping into this.

Thanks again Kev.

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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by themadhippy » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:38 pm

you can't do that DIY these days.
whos gonna know?If you own the house the only time it becomes an issue is if you sell the property.or you make an insurance claim and the insurance company use it as a get out clause to avoid paying out
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Rankin_leigh » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:25 am

In my last house I wired up a 30 amp supply to the garage but you can't do that DIY these days. Might get a sparkie in to see how much it would cost - me doing the cable laying from the circuit board and digging out the channel to the garage - and him putting a unit in the garage and hooking up. That would allow me to double up on the element power to speed things up.
[/quote]

This is the exact point that I'm at (10gal 3 pot system though)
Any sparkies on here that know a rough cost for just hooking it up if all cable etc is put in place?

I've been researching a herms upgrade/building a pid control panel amongst other bits. But so many variables with the system still to work out!

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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Cobnut » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:10 pm

[/quote]
In my last house I wired up a 30 amp supply to the garage but you can't do that DIY these days. Might get a sparkie in to see how much it would cost - me doing the cable laying from the circuit board and digging out the channel to the garage - and him putting a unit in the garage and hooking up. That would allow me to double up on the element power to speed things up.
[/quote]

Provided you get a Part P qualified/certified "sparky" to check the installation and sign it off, there is nothing preventing you doing your own wiring AFAIK.

And - as someone else said - it is only an issue when you come to sell the house or make an insurance claim or get a "sparky" to make further wiring modifications. If you can find a source of pre-part P cable, who's to know? :wink:

In fact, the wiring to my brewshed might have been carried out by a non-part P certified "sparky" :-$
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by themadhippy » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:17 pm

Any sparkies on here that know a rough cost for just hooking it up if all cable etc is put in place?
More than getting the sparky to do all the work and provide the materials,there signing off a legal document to say the entire job has been carried out to the regs and is safe,if further down the line a problem appears due to you making an error its the sparks neck on the line.It used to be possible to get the local council to inspect and sign off diy installations, last time i looked it was around the £300 mark,no idea if thats still a possibility.
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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by rpruen » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:19 pm

As far as electricians go, I would do the job, but I would want to be able to inspect everything. Plus you will need to have the relevant protection device in place (RCBOs or RCD) to comply with the regulations.

A rough idea would be about £100 to connect and test, if there is capacity in the existing installation. It will be much more if you need a new consumer unit, or anything complicated.

Regards

Richard

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Re: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Meatymc » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:57 pm

rpruen wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:19 pm
As far as electricians go, I would do the job, but I would want to be able to inspect everything. Plus you will need to have the relevant protection device in place (RCBOs or RCD) to comply with the regulations.

A rough idea would be about £100 to connect and test, if there is capacity in the existing installation. It will be much more if you need a new consumer unit, or anything complicated.

Regards

Richard
Good to know Richard - ta.

I've actually done this myself twice. The 2nd time I did as per your comments - wired to the consumer unit and the garage area where I wanted the box leaving everything exposed (floorboards up, channel unfilled and cable visible throughout. Local sparkie came, checked over and connected up both ends. Think is was something similar to what you quoted although I also seem to remember him having a few jars of my homebrew and can't actually recall any money changing hands :wink:

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