Just changing brewing method

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PeeBee
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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by PeeBee » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:10 pm

"Nibber's" reminder to use Q-max hole punches is very sound. Don't drill into stainless steel pans (more than say 7mm holes) or you may regret it! Q-max punches seem expensive to make one or two holes, but they are a lot cheaper than replacing a pan with a mangled hole in it. SS is hard.

Careful with electrical instructions from the States or other worldwide Web site. They have a very different approach to electrics. Once it was easier, you couldn't buy a relay rated at more than a few amps and were forced to figure out what a "Contactor" is. Now you can order "32A" relays from China that will possibly burn your house down in fairly short order. There is also an infatuation with "low-power-density" elements that we never had in the UK until infected from abroad. My own brewing (UK) elements are 6kW. They are 3-phase (3x2kW elements) but can be wired for single phase (instructions included; you can get away with this for low powered, <6 or 7kW. But they are a bit expensive compared to some fantasy foreign ones you can buy.

And you probably will need an electrician to sort out a high power circuit. There is a reason why domestic kettle elements are 2.4kW (you can still find 3kW if you search hard).

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

herms bay
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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by herms bay » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:32 pm

I have very similar, I can't afford SS gear but have bought some 70l pots and a 50l pot for mash. I am using weldless fittings as you have and the best investment so far is the cutters from China. they go through pans like butter and give very neat cuts.
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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by herms bay » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:40 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:10 pm
"Nibber's" reminder to use Q-max hole punches is very sound. Don't drill into stainless steel pans (more than say 7mm holes) or you may regret it! Q-max punches seem expensive to make one or two holes, but they are a lot cheaper than replacing a pan with a mangled hole in it. SS is hard.

Careful with electrical instructions from the States or other worldwide Web site. They have a very different approach to electrics. Once it was easier, you couldn't buy a relay rated at more than a few amps and were forced to figure out what a "Contactor" is. Now you can order "32A" relays from China that will possibly burn your house down in fairly short order. There is also an infatuation with "low-power-density" elements that we never had in the UK until infected from abroad. My own brewing (UK) elements are 6kW. They are 3-phase (3x2kW elements) but can be wired for single phase (instructions included; you can get away with this for low powered, <6 or 7kW. But they are a bit expensive compared to some fantasy foreign ones you can buy.

And you probably will need an electrician to sort out a high power circuit. There is a reason why domestic kettle elements are 2.4kW (you can still find 3kW if you search hard).
I have made my own panel as i'm a control engineer. I have a 32A supply on an RCD/MCB isolator. I'm using 5500W elements but this means I can only select one at once; HLT or BK via keyswitch. (Ultra low watt density) :D I am running these through SSR's on heatsinks from Eurotherm controllers as the duty on PID's would be a bit high on contactors.
I have added the elements through 2" tri=clamps so I could always drop to 3000W ones if I feel the need. I am thinking I may have been better off going with a 100l boil kettle but I would be pushed for space on my counter.

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by f00b4r » Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:31 pm

herms bay wrote: I have made my own panel as i'm a control engineer. I have a 32A supply on an RCD/MCB isolator. I'm using 5500W elements but this means I can only select one at once; HLT or BK via keyswitch. (Ultra low watt density) :D I am running these through SSR's on heatsinks from Eurotherm controllers as the duty on PID's would be a bit high on contactors.
I have added the elements through 2" tri=clamps so I could always drop to 3000W ones if I feel the need. I am thinking I may have been better off going with a 100l boil kettle but I would be pushed for space on my counter.
There is a way to ‘run both’ via Brewblox (formerly BrewPi), it would rapidly switch between them (PWM?) so the draw would never be greater than safely available. Probably irrelevant for you, given you have built your own control panel, but it might be useful for others perusing this thread in the future.

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by f00b4r » Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:35 pm

PeeBee wrote: Careful with electrical instructions from the States or other worldwide Web site. They have a very different approach to electrics. Once it was easier, you couldn't buy a relay rated at more than a few amps and were forced to figure out what a "Contactor" is. Now you can order "32A" relays from China that will possibly burn your house down in fairly short order. There is also an infatuation with "low-power-density" elements that we never had in the UK until infected from abroad. My own brewing (UK) elements are 6kW. They are 3-phase (3x2kW elements) but can be wired for single phase (instructions included; you can get away with this for low powered, <6 or 7kW. But they are a bit expensive compared to some fantasy foreign ones you can buy.

And you probably will need an electrician to sort out a high power circuit. There is a reason why domestic kettle elements are 2.4kW (you can still find 3kW if you search hard).
I would disagree on LWD elements, they serve a useful function are have been used in the Braumeister for a long time. IIRC correctly you have suffered from scorching in the Grainfather at times, this doesn’t happen in the BM. I know the GF has a concealed element, which exacerbated the problem, but I have seen others have the same issue with certain grain bills and standard elements.

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by herms bay » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:36 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:31 pm
herms bay wrote: I have made my own panel as i'm a control engineer. I have a 32A supply on an RCD/MCB isolator. I'm using 5500W elements but this means I can only select one at once; HLT or BK via keyswitch. (Ultra low watt density) :D I am running these through SSR's on heatsinks from Eurotherm controllers as the duty on PID's would be a bit high on contactors.
I have added the elements through 2" tri=clamps so I could always drop to 3000W ones if I feel the need. I am thinking I may have been better off going with a 100l boil kettle but I would be pushed for space on my counter.
There is a way to ‘run both’ via Brewblox (formerly BrewPi), it would rapidly switch between them (PWM?) so the draw would never be greater than safely available. Probably irrelevant for you, given you have built your own control panel, but it might be useful for others perusing this thread in the future.
I understand that can be done but there doesn't seem to be the need. The 5500W elements should be fast enough to boil and would probably swap before the end of sparge to save the element on the HLT from scorching when water level too low.
f00b4r wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:35 pm
PeeBee wrote: Careful with electrical instructions from the States or other worldwide Web site. They have a very different approach to electrics. Once it was easier, you couldn't buy a relay rated at more than a few amps and were forced to figure out what a "Contactor" is. Now you can order "32A" relays from China that will possibly burn your house down in fairly short order. There is also an infatuation with "low-power-density" elements that we never had in the UK until infected from abroad. My own brewing (UK) elements are 6kW. They are 3-phase (3x2kW elements) but can be wired for single phase (instructions included; you can get away with this for low powered, <6 or 7kW. But they are a bit expensive compared to some fantasy foreign ones you can buy.

And you probably will need an electrician to sort out a high power circuit. There is a reason why domestic kettle elements are 2.4kW (you can still find 3kW if you search hard).
I would disagree on LWD elements, they serve a useful function are have been used in the Braumeister for a long time. IIRC correctly you have suffered from scorching in the Grainfather at times, this doesn’t happen in the BM. I know the GF has a concealed element, which exacerbated the problem, but I have seen others have the same issue with certain grain bills and standard elements.
I think especially in the Boil kettle the use of ultra low watt density elements would be far better to not scorch the wort. Will post a pic of the panel when finished if anyone interested. have drawn everything up and schematics too.

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Just changing brewing method

Post by f00b4r » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:40 pm

‘Show and tell’ is always good and often sparks some good questions or helps others decide on direction with their builds.
Looking forward to seeing it in action.

EDIT: the schematics can often be good for a sense check too (there are a few electricians etc on here too)

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by PeeBee » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:23 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:35 pm
… IIRC correctly you have suffered from scorching in the Grainfather at times, …
Nope, 'twasn't me.

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by MashBag » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:35 am

Very neat work. Well done.

Good choice with the cutter-bit did you used. Stainless can be a challenge.
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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by f00b4r » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:47 am

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:23 pm
f00b4r wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:35 pm
… IIRC correctly you have suffered from scorching in the Grainfather at times, …
Nope, 'twasn't me.
Plenty of others have though on the GF and it's imitators, especially with wheat heavy beers. I think it is worse though for those that do not thoroughly clean the area after every brew (my early experiences with BIAB and a Buffalo boiler anyway).

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by PeeBee » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:19 am

f00b4r wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:47 am

Plenty of others have though on the GF and it's imitators, especially with wheat heavy beers. …
You might have been remembering my larking about with "cold extraction" of malt for low alcohol beers. It extracted surprising quantities of protein. Which all ended up in the boil and congealed on the element ("grain omelette"). "Potential" scorching, in line with the "heavy wheat beer" experiences? Actually not so much scorching; people were burning out their elements with "cold extraction".

So "low watt density" elements can stand as the do no harm and might avoid surprises (I still think they're hokum). Looking up "32A" relays on eBay just now also drew a blank. Lots of Chinese "Contactors" instead (effectively a heavy-duty relay). Seems someone has been handing out slapped wrists? I'll need to change my "examples" for when posting words of caution. I'm sure there are plenty of other ludicrously dangerous foreign electrical devices to refresh my lists (the home-grown ones get stamped on pretty quick … usually!).

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by MashBag » Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:27 am

I'm sure there are plenty of other ludicrously dangerous foreign electrical devices to refresh my lists (the home-grown ones get stamped on pretty quick … usually!).
A mate of mine refers to them as "small black plug in Chinese bonfires"

They're are millions of them.

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by herms bay » Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:03 pm

Have developed the control system and because you are selecting the HLT or the BK you can get away with only one PID to do both, PID control for the HLT and when you select the BK use manual mode on the same controller. I like this one:
https://www.lamonde.com/products/proces ... 48-v0.html

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by MashBag » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:42 pm

The stainless project case is a nice touch

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Re: Just changing brewing method

Post by floydmeddler » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:45 am

HOw is the build going Herms Bay? Any pics?

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