Making water for starsan vs buying it

[AnthonyUK]

Ah ok you were talking of oxyclean, my apologies. Are there no perfumes in there? In any case it's not a recognised sanitiser and comes firmly into the cleaner camp.

Don't take this the wrong way. I am not having a go or anything it is just I'm new to this and there is a lot of conflicting info around.
You say that Oxyclean isn't a recognised sanitiser - which is basically Sodium Percarbonate.

Here is the product info from Coopers Sanitiser

Coopers Sanitiser contains Sodium Percarbonate, an environmentally friendly cleaner/sanitiser for Beer Making equipment, which is more effective and safer than Sodium Metabisulphite.
Sanitiser.

I don't know what else it contains though and have seen Oxyclean recommend a fair amount - I did a LOT of reading before starting
I believe One-step sanitiser is also the same as Coopers.
My kit contained Sodium Metabisulphite which I used at first.

[EoinMag]

Ah ok you were talking of oxyclean, my apologies. Are there no perfumes in there? In any case it's not a recognised sanitiser and comes firmly into the cleaner camp.

Don't take this the wrong way. I am not having a go or anything it is just I'm new to this and there is a lot of conflicting info around.
You say that Oxyclean isn't a recognised sanitiser - which is basically Sodium Percarbonate.

Here is the product info from Coopers Sanitiser

Coopers Sanitiser contains Sodium Percarbonate, an environmentally friendly cleaner/sanitiser for Beer Making equipment, which is more effective and safer than Sodium Metabisulphite.
Sanitiser.

I don't know what else it contains though and have seen Oxyclean recommend a fair amount - I did a LOT of reading before starting
I believe One-step sanitiser is also the same as Coopers.
My kit contained Sodium Metabisulphite which I used at first.

OK, one step was officially taken off the no rinse sanitiser list and relegated to cleaning agent by (I think) the FDA in America, so I think that is where my information is coming from. They are obliged legally not to call it a sanitiser now whereby they used that name for years, so we both have a part of the story, but for all intents and purposes I think you are correct now that I know it's the same stuff. I'd say you can continue happily with it in safety but as said there was a reason it was taken off that list and I think it's the kill rate of microorganisms, but not sure on that one.

[OldThumper]

Still waiting for a reply from Starsan on this chaps.....

[MattK]

...fetching containers of heavy water.

Heavy water? If Star San needs deuterium it's even more of a palaver than I thought!

On a more serious note, what *are* the requirements for Star San?

[Kev888]

My understanding is a PH of the mixed solution below about 3.0 - higher than that and its supposed to become ineffective. I have found my tap water doesn't achieve that, some bottled waters did but RO/de-ionised/distilled water has seemed to be the best, taking longer before it goes out of range (I re-use mine and it can last a long time, even when mixed).

Cheers
kev

[Naich]

Just a mad idea here, but rather than using CRS to lower the alkalinity of hard water to make is suitable for the Star San, why not use a cheaper acid? I'm thinking Tesco Value vinegar. It doesn't matter if the resulting liquid tastes and smells bloody horrible because it's all going to get washed out anyway. Please bear in mind that chemistry is not my strong point while you list the reasons why this is a stupid idea

[Kev888]

Thats an interesting idea, although I usually don't rinse my starsan so it'd have to be 'reasonably' palatable and safe for the yeast/beer etc. Along similar lines, I'd wondered about citric acid too, but as no-one else is doing it and I'm fairly useless at chemistry..

Can anyone see a problem with a cheap acid of some kind?? Or failing that maybe a beneficial one - e.g. could something like a dilute paracetic acid mix reduce PH and add its own sanitation value? Or would adding acid then become 'not' no-rinse, comparable to having used a stronger mix of starsan. My my, theres sooo much i know nothing about here..

Cheers
Kev

[Aleman]

Phosphoric . . .75 and 85% solutions are easily obtainable very cheaply (try murphyshomebrew) .. .plus the acid base of Star San is phosphoric so you are not introducing another (possibly antagonistic) anion, that and the fact that ethanoic and citric acids are weak acids anyway so you would need quita lot of it win highly alkaline waters.

[EoinMag]

Star san is formulated to be no rinse at the recommended PPM. I think if you are adding more phosphoric acid to the water that you are changing that balance and it'll possibly no longer be no-rinse.

All very complicated when it's easy, and not very expensive to go to Halfords to buy a 5l drum of deionised water, or go to your local aquarium shop with a container and ask them to fill you up with RO from their tank.

[Aleman]

or buy your own Reverse Osmosis Unit

[simco999]

But, this Starsan? 'Water of a certain PH'?! F**k Off!!! Litmus Paper? Stills?! Ye kidding me?

And, because they call it " Non Rinse ", You consider it 'Labour Saving'?! F**k Off!!!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Naich]

While I still use chlorine-based sanitiser for doing FVs, kegs and the like, Star San or Peracetic is good for doing odd bits. When I do bottling, I give the bottling stick and FV tap a quick spray with Peracetic before I start, and a blast into the caps from the squirter sorts them out too. It's good because you can leave it in the spray bottle and quickly sanitise random bits and bobs with a squirt or two. Just don't get any of the neat stuff on your skin.

[Aleman]

But, this Starsan? 'Water of a certain PH'?! F**k Off!!! Litmus Paper? Stills?! Ye kidding me?

And, because they call it " Non Rinse ", You consider it 'Labour Saving'?! F**k Off!!!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I refer the honourable gentleman to my reply here

[Kev888]

Thanks for the responses chaps. Think the phosphoric may well be worth thinking more about, if we can establish its effect on 'no-rinse' or not. Probably most other things would be more aggro than is justified given how cheap RO water is.

Sim, if you are able to get some DI/RO/distilled water easily then starsan is really dead easy to use, saves me hours of soaking and rinsing. I never bother testing PH and so on when using neutral water either, just dilute to strength and stick it in the sprayer bottle. All this extra complication is probably misleading - just me wondering if there was a way to even avoid bringing the water home - seems like there probably is but it adds levels of complication that cancel out the benefits.

As usual the answer is probably KISS and as Eoinmag says just buying cheap water from an aquarium shop or somewhere and have done with it - siiimples and all that. I think it has been worth asking the question to make sure, though.

Cheers
kev

[EoinMag]

But, this Starsan? 'Water of a certain PH'?! F**k Off!!! Litmus Paper? Stills?! Ye kidding me?

And, because they call it " Non Rinse ", You consider it 'Labour Saving'?! F**k Off!!!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Believe what you want, but I'm not putting all this time and money into my beer to have something stupid like an infection or a taste of bleach screw it up.

Star san is outstanding at what it does, no rinsing, get that no rinsing is needed, in fact it's even so good that if you have something that had bleach in it and use star san on said item, the bleach smell even goes away......

My answer could be similar to Ale Mans, it's a simple act to get known good water from halfords or wherever and I've used ten litres of that water for the last three brews at least, it's not a huge investment.

A bottle of star san lasts two to three years if you use it smartly, I daresay you'd spend as much on bleach in the same period of time.

Don't let the apparent complication put you off a great innovation, and who knows, maybe your tap water is perfect for it.

The basic approach taken by some people will work for them, but for an all-grain brewer things like pH strips and pH metres are standard fare and nothing to be scared of anyway, nothing wrong with a bit of science being employed in the pursuit of better beer.

If bleach works for you then go for it, I've ruined brews with supposed no-rinse solutions of bleach before and it's not happening to me again thanks very much.