Damn! Had to tip 75L of beer - ACETOBACTER!!!

[Kev888]

Hmm, there are loads of little flies about at the moment, in fact i think they must be attracted to CO2 or something because they seem to home in on my garage during fermentation... I know what you mean about airtight, but fly-tight is probably still a good idea. Actually, some of them are tiny.. <Kev nips home to put an extra weight on the FV lid>

[EoinMag]

Hmm, there are loads of little flies about at the moment, in fact i think they must be attracted to CO2 or something because they seem to home in on my garage during fermentation... I know what you mean about airtight, but fly-tight is probably still a good idea. Actually, some of them are tiny.. <Kev nips home to put an extra weight on the FV lid>

Yeah they do seem to be able to hone in on C02, it makes sense though when they live on fermenting stuff that they would detect it.

[floydmeddler]

Guys, acetobacter infection has nothing to do with sealed fermenters or not, excepting the instance where you're stopping flies getting in there, obviously you need to stop vinegar flies. Apart from that though air tight or not has nothing to do with it, it's more than likely that there is an infection in some of the equipment.

I've had one or two infections, once because I put the lid of a fermenter down on a baby chair upside down without thinking and recently because I put an unsanitised ladel into the fermenter to take a sample, again without thinking. My fermenters just have a lid snapped down on them, not even the whole way around, I don't bother with airlocks anymore because they just tend to cause issues with stuff sucking back into the fermenter whenever I move it, so I just don't bother with them anymore.

In any case, keeping the fermenters air tight is not what will solve your issues.

My reading has led me to believe that acetobacter spores float around in the atmosphere therefore making it plausible that it may not have been a fly.

However, say my first beer was infected because of a fly. The fermenter next to it (also not fully air tight) quickly became infected too. The ones at my mates were heated using immersion heaters from my infected batches - perhaps I didn't sanitise them properly? However, one of my mate's infected batches had a brand new immersion heater inside so I doubt that was carrying any acetobacter. However, that fermenter wasn't air tight and was sat next to an infected batch.

Conclusion: If one is infected, it releases loads of spores that quickly settle and destroy nearby brews. If any of you are unfortunate to have this bacteria visit your fermenter, immediately ensure that other nearby fermenters are completely airtight and make sure you rack/bottle them in another room!

[EoinMag]

Nope, not a chance, there is common equipment that has spread the infection. I would bet anything that the infection was not airborne. There are open fermentations that do not get infected the infection got in there probably by way of the heaters alright, I never did understand putting those unsanitary things directly into wort.

Acetobacter does float in the air, but it is not a ninja, it won't get in under a lid laid on top of a fermenter, even if it did, it obviously does in open fermentations so it's 100% not your infection vector.

[floydmeddler]

We'll never know and it's impossible to ever really find out the actual cause. I did open the fermenter quite a few times to check on fermentation - new yeast and was intrigued as to how it would perform/aromas etc. Perhaps spores settled in then.

Very bottom line is that I need to do every thing I can think of to stop this beast and having sealed fermenters is obviously the sensible thing to do since my personal experience has proved to me that nearby unsealed fermenters become infected within a few days.

[EoinMag]

Very bottom line is that I need to do every thing I can think of to stop this beast and having sealed fermenters is obviously the sensible thing to do since my personal experience has proved to me that nearby unsealed fermenters become infected within a few days.

I don't think it's proven that at all, but if you want to believe that's the case then go ahead, but it's not a proper conclusion from what has happened and could lead you to believe some incorrect stuff about infections, so it'd be a sillly conclusion to carry with you on your home brewing career.

To paraphrase Occams Razor, "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one", and in this case the airborne transmission of an acetobacter infection from one fermenter to a nearby fermenter is not by any means the simplest explanation.

I'm not trying to argue with you here by the way, just set you straight because I 100% believe you are looking at the wrong vector for an infection and apart from anything else you won't sort out your problems in this manner and will continue to have infected brews unless you actually find the source an sort it out.

Apart from anything else, the acetobacter family of bacteria does not generally (a bit more research might allow one to say never, but this was with 5 minutes googling) form spores.....

[judasegg]

I wrote a big response and of course I timed out and lost it. Geez.

The highlights:

1) Make sure you are not the source. Personal hygiene, mouthwash, fresh clothes.
2) Get a friend or fellow brewer to document and review your process, especially post-boil.
3) Starsan and PBW. Seriously. Get some water cooler jugs (easy to get for free from an office that has water cooler), drill out and seal with bung. 19L of PBW and Starsan for your brewing use. Sorted. Combined with a plastic tub from B&Q, you can leave lots of equipment in starsan until needed.
4) Scrubbies, including a toothbrush for hard to reach, and small spaces in brewing equipment.
5) Keep FV lids closed, use airlocks

I find it extremely hard to believe that an infection just floated on in on the back of a fly or something...several times...in different locations. Otherwise, people would be quitting brewing all over the place, or brewing vinegar instead. The source of the infection is most likely the brewer, or his equipment.

[EoinMag]

5) Keep FV lids closed, use airlocks
.

I disagree on this point, airlocks are for people who like to watch bubbles or for winemakers laying stuff down for months or years even, they have little relevance to a beer brewer. They do give people the warm fuzzies....but don't really help with stopping infection anymore than a not fully snapped down lid.

[floydmeddler]

Very bottom line is that I need to do every thing I can think of to stop this beast and having sealed fermenters is obviously the sensible thing to do since my personal experience has proved to me that nearby unsealed fermenters become infected within a few days.

I don't think it's proven that at all, but if you want to believe that's the case then go ahead, but it's not a proper conclusion from what has happened and could lead you to believe some incorrect stuff about infections, so it'd be a sillly conclusion to carry with you on your home brewing career.

To paraphrase Occams Razor, "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one", and in this case the airborne transmission of an acetobacter infection from one fermenter to a nearby fermenter is not by any means the simplest explanation.

I'm not trying to argue with you here by the way, just set you straight because I 100% believe you are looking at the wrong vector for an infection and apart from anything else you won't sort out your problems in this manner and will continue to have infected brews unless you actually find the source an sort it out.

Apart from anything else, the acetobacter family of bacteria does not generally (a bit more research might allow one to say never, but this was with 5 minutes googling) form spores.....

Cheers EoinMag. As I suggested earlier, It may have been one of my immersion heaters. Fingers crossed that my current brew will be OK. I brewed it last week and haven't once peeked inside... I'm too scared!

I'll just be super careful with sanitation from now on...

[floydmeddler]

I wrote a big response and of course I timed out and lost it. Geez.

The highlights:

1) Make sure you are not the source. Personal hygiene, mouthwash, fresh clothes.
2) Get a friend or fellow brewer to document and review your process, especially post-boil.
3) Starsan and PBW. Seriously. Get some water cooler jugs (easy to get for free from an office that has water cooler), drill out and seal with bung. 19L of PBW and Starsan for your brewing use. Sorted. Combined with a plastic tub from B&Q, you can leave lots of equipment in starsan until needed.
4) Scrubbies, including a toothbrush for hard to reach, and small spaces in brewing equipment.
5) Keep FV lids closed, use airlocks

I find it extremely hard to believe that an infection just floated on in on the back of a fly or something...several times...in different locations. Otherwise, people would be quitting brewing all over the place, or brewing vinegar instead. The source of the infection is most likely the brewer, or his equipment.

Cheers judasegg.

[jmc]

Hi Floyd

Best of luck with the latest brew.
ATB John

[floydmeddler]

Cheers jmc.

OK, so just racked and 'gelatined' my current brew. No signs of the dreaded acetoacter! Only been in the primary fermenter for 9 days. I usually leave it for 2-3 weeks but want this one in bottles ASAP. Gravity is 1012 which seems about right. Will leave in secondary to drop bright for 2 weeks then bottle. Will be able to tell within 2 days or so whether or not acetobacter develops in secondary. Fingers crossed it won't... So far so good!

[Spud395]

[EoinMag]

Good luck with it this time, it's a killer when you start as a brewer and end up a vinegar maker, and they're so close to each other......

[196osh]

Thats not unlike the one I just chucked out. Thin medicinal but almost as if the beery flavors had been stripped from it. It wasn't cloudy either.