PH Level of Star San

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McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:35 am

MashBag wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:04 am
Carnot wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:07 pm

... and I use a a caustic based food standard sanitiser that is a fraction of the price of Starsan; it is always rinsed immediately prior to used.
Does food grade matter, if you are rinsing thoroughly?
Do data-driven regulations matter? At the end of the day they are designed to protect you and your environment. Right? Hint: many potentially harmful molecules don’t rinse away easily and wouldn’t be considered safe to use in food production environments, including breweries and home brewing.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:04 am

Carnot wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:14 pm
Try these. Both work


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164854015699 ... SwTMlfPOgV

Clover Trio 100

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161205511360 ... SwM8NcpcDY

Selden Kitchen Cleaner.
Hi Carnot

What do you mean by 'Both work'?

I've used Starsan for years and (without wishing to tempt fate!) haven't had to chuck a brew because of infection since I started using it.

I don't have any fancy microbiological gear to test the surface contamination of my kit before and after using Starsan but, from my perspective, Starsan 'works'.

Guy

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MashBag
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:15 am

McMullan wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:35 am
MashBag wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:04 am
Carnot wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:07 pm

... and I use a a caustic based food standard sanitiser that is a fraction of the price of Starsan; it is always rinsed immediately prior to used.
Does food grade matter, if you are rinsing thoroughly?
Do data-driven regulations matter? At the end of the day they are designed to protect you and your environment. Right? Hint: many potentially harmful molecules don’t rinse away easily and wouldn’t be considered safe to use in food production environments, including breweries and home brewing.
If they are indeed data driven and not data from commercially sponsored research?

I get your point.

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:36 pm

MashBag wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:15 am
McMullan wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:35 am
MashBag wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:04 am


Does food grade matter, if you are rinsing thoroughly?
Do data-driven regulations matter? At the end of the day they are designed to protect you and your environment. Right? Hint: many potentially harmful molecules don’t rinse away easily and wouldn’t be considered safe to use in food production environments, including breweries and home brewing.
If they are indeed data driven and not data from commercially sponsored research?

I get your point.
Biased ‘data’ coughed up by industry conflicts of interest are engineered to keep offending molecules off regulatory lists. Aided and abetted by the likes of the European Commission and their EFSA. The UK post-Brexit authorities are unlikely to be any better, but more easily accountable without the EU to hide behind. Economics at any cost as far as they’re all concerned. It’s almost like they’re too stupid to understand living things (including humans) need a suitable environment to survive. Superfluous profits hoarded by corporations don’t seem to be a realistic substitute, regardless how much PR they throw at it. Who are they kidding? When a molecule gets listed as risk ‘x’ it’s generally for very good reason and some more. It turns out sanitising our environment wholesale to increase profits for big chemical corporations and mean people generally really was a very shit idea. Just like biologists predicted back in the 1950s. Now we have PR firms trying to normalise toxic oceans, climate heating, feminised wildlife, a spike in enviro-neurodevelopmental disorders and a kind of genocide against pollinators. What will they feed us next? More shit, no doubt, regardless.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Carnot » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:07 pm

As expected the flak has started in earnest.

Well iIagree with some aspects of the criticism and strongly disagree with others.

No-one is quoting form an MSDS. Here is the source for the trio 100 MSDS and it is work a peek.

http://www.cloverchem.co.uk/2013/sds/en ... 00_sds.pdf

In a nutshell Trio 100 consists of some ethoxylated alcohol surfactants and some quat amines (along with some pH builders). The latter are disinfectents and are widely used in industrial and household applications. The surfactants are similarly used widely in industrial and household applications. The neat product is toxic to marine organisms, like many similar substances. All of the disinfectants and surfactants are readily biodegradable, which is fine if disposed into the foul water sewer system, not if disposed into storm water sewers. Common sense.

I do not disagree with the comments with respect to bleach or Iodophore. Both are oxidsing disinfectants as is sodium percarbonate, hydrogen peroxide and peracetic acid. My personal preference is sodium percarbonate for deep cleaning of stainless steel followed periodically by citirc acid passivation.

In closing, you pay your money and take your choice. If you believe the propaganda regarding Starsan then pay your money and enjoy the warm feeling of satisfaction. Its a bit like Covid vaccines. Pfizer costs 10 x OAZ, does the same job, and has very similar blood clot potential. But some people only want the Pfizer vaccine.

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:20 am

Do QAC based sanitisers have any negative impacts on beer? How come breweries don't seem to use them? What we need to consider really is what the science says. We should be more interested in toxicology reports (independent of industry and the European Commission) than MSDSs coughed up by manufacturers and suppliers. An MSDS for plutonium doesn’t make plutonium safe, regardless what beliefs biases want to push. It’s important not to confuse science with MSDS files and PR reports that make sweeping claims based on opinions propping up conflicts of interest. Industry sponsored research reporting ‘biodegradability’ of what makes said industry lots of money isn’t science either. It’s marketing poorly dressed up as ‘science’. More an abuse of science. Pseudo science usually. These products are so widely used (very lucrative, that is) so-called ‘low level’ environmental contamination is actually high in reality. How quickly they degrade once dumped in the environment is possibly a moot point. Wildlife is subject to continuous exposures regardless, because they don't degrade that quickly, do they? We’ve been sold nonsense it’s fine to conveniently dump 'safe' shit for ‘free’ down the drain. That's what I have a problem with mainly. I don't have a problem with chemicals generally, if they have a genuine use and can be handled with some respect for the environment. Again, if a home brewer thinks StarSan is expensive he's making far too much. I remember some numpty on YouTube made about 25L of StarSan solution in a 30L bucket fermenter so he could sanitise an airlock #-o

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Carnot » Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:05 pm

Well perhaps you might like to read the product description. - link below

Suitable for use in a range of industries, including; kitchens, bakeries, confectioners, meat preparation, breweries, shops, butchers, hospitals, restaurants and canteens.

http://www.cloverchem.co.uk/2013/uk/pro ... ub=%274%27

I have used this product for 5 years. I am still alive, the environment around me is not noticeably degraded, and I have not grown any horns. Oh, and my friends are only too pleased to drink my ales. My mead is in strong demand with people wishing to buy it, but I cannot sell it.

So does Trio 100 work. Well in my opinion it does what I want and that is what matters.150+ brews later not one infection. Of course there are people, such as our friend McM ,who being a mirennneuker( a wonderful dutch word) will never believe that there are sanitisers other than Starsan that work. You can find the MSDS for Starsan here https://fivestarchemicals.com/media/doc ... -11-17.pdf

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by zipfly » Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:17 pm

is the trio 1000 at the recommended diltion of 1:80?

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Carnot » Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:31 pm

Yes 12.5 ml per litre, but I ust confess I am do not exactly measure it out to the exact ml. I put about 2.5 water ltr in my fermenters after a good rinse and scrub followed by about an egg cup full of Trio and leave to soak for about 30 mins after sloshing it about. I dump the contents don the toilet and then rinse with about 1 litre of water 3 times.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:54 am

Could you use it as a spray?

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:54 am

Carnot wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:05 pm
Well perhaps you might like to read the product description. - link below

Suitable for use in a range of industries, including; kitchens, bakeries, confectioners, meat preparation, breweries, shops, butchers, hospitals, restaurants and canteens.

http://www.cloverchem.co.uk/2013/uk/pro ... ub=%274%27

I have used this product for 5 years. I am still alive, the environment around me is not noticeably degraded, and I have not grown any horns. Oh, and my friends are only too pleased to drink my ales. My mead is in strong demand with people wishing to buy it, but I cannot sell it.

So does Trio 100 work. Well in my opinion it does what I want and that is what matters.150+ brews later not one infection. Of course there are people, such as our friend McM ,who being a mirennneuker( a wonderful dutch word) will never believe that there are sanitisers other than Starsan that work. You can find the MSDS for Starsan here https://fivestarchemicals.com/media/doc ... -11-17.pdf
I don't expect it to do anything StarSan doesn't. Both mild bactericides at the recommended working concentrations. Broad spectrum biocides at higher concentrations? Data for the environmental fate are far too limited and biased to type with any level of confidence. Again, although not my primary sanitiser, I'd choose StarSan as it's less harmful, according to the available data.

Unless you're representative of the developing unborn and juveniles that haven't completed development (i.e. individuals at very vulnerable stages of life, biologically speaking, in terms of chemical exposure), aquatic wildlife swimming in it, predators consuming them, etc., etc., whether you're fine or not after 5 years of use is neither here nor there. I suspect when you were developing in your mother's womb and when you played outside as a child, your environment (including the food you ate and air your breathed) was very very different from today, in terms of contamination levels for synthetic chemicals and other pollutants. It was individuals and corporations from our cohort(s) who profiteered from trashing our environment. Let's be honest about it. It's the only way to deal with cognitive bias.

Edit: What made you imagine I was a non-believer? I'm not a believer generally. I accept or reject based on available evidence. I bet you worked for Unilever or similar at some point :lol: Is that where you learned about pH?
Last edited by McMullan on Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:07 am

MashBag wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:54 am
Could you use it as a spray?
One well-designed study found a statistically significant link between asthma-like conditions developing in farm workers using QAC based sanitisers as sprays. I do use StarSan solution in a spray bottle, but I've always been mindful not to inhale too much of the aerosol. I'd say if you want to spray any synthetic sanitiser - create an aerosol - do so with a bit of common sense. I'd be interested if we have any asthmatics onboard who spray StarSan or other sanitisers routinely and what they experience.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by oz11 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:07 pm

Asthmatic starsan-sprayer here. I notice no ill effects from it.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Carnot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:50 pm

McM,

I note that you do not allow PM's. As for my experience I do not wish to bore others. I am a chemist and I went to a university that actually taught chemistry which is a rareity these days. I have worked for 43 years in oil production, refining, petrochemicals AND most important water treatment. I am well known in my field. I respect your experience in biochemistry, far better than my own. Good science only comes from good critical review.

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:58 pm

Oil industry, aye? That explains a lot.

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