PH Level of Star San

The place to discuss all things about brewing hygiene!
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MashBag
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:34 am

McMullan wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:58 pm
Oil industry, aye? That explains a lot.


Is that another personal attack?

Please.. Get a grip.

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:22 am

You’ll find it’s the oil industry that we need to get a grip on. A very firm grip expressing no mercy. The lies they’ve coughed up since the 1960s are truly staggering. Beyond dishonesty. Nothing less than crimes against humanity. Evil psychopaths.

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MashBag
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:07 pm

That may or may not be true, but that is not the way to do it and forum wide "off topic".

I would not attack you personally for being a biochemist. I am sure there are charletons in your line of work, but I don't treat all of you with the same brush.

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:03 pm

Someone’s arrived expressing opinions shaped by their cognitive biases, haven’t they? :lol: The chemists I know have a clue generally about the chemistry of the chemicals they work with, including any potential harmful biological/ecological impacts. They don’t go online recommending behaviour likely to promote irresponsible pollution of the environment. It’s important to understand what promotes such idiocy. Important too to try not to apologise for such behaviour. That’s equally idiotic.

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MashBag
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:26 am

The quality & content of posts is always an issue.

There is always more that one way of doing anything - and some will be worst that others. It is the role of the educated to share knowledge and lift the collective beliefs & practices.

Calling out inaccuracies is also necessary for future readers and are far more powerful without flaming & sarcasm.

Binkie Huckaback
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Binkie Huckaback » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:50 pm

I've heard Charlie Talley of Five Star being interviewed on a couple of occasions and although obviously he was promoting Star San (while constantly telling his audience that at the correct dilution rate bleach is the best no-rinse sanitiser), think it's the homebrew community who've over-hyped it.

There are two reasons I want a no-rinse sanitiser. First, I can see no point in sanitising something only to then risk contamination by rinsing with tap water. Second, I don't want to have to wait fifteen minutes for something to sanitise only to drop it and having to wait another fifteen minutes to sanitise again.

I used iodophor for years at a rate of 1.25ml per litre of cold water with a teaspoon of citric acid due to living in a hard water area. This was information I found here and took at face value. Certainly I only had no more than a couple in infected beers over many years of on/off brewing. Even including some badly stored beers forgotten about for a number of years which I think goes to show it was down to bad luck or negligence on my part. Mind you, I don't have a great palette, so I could be wrong.

If I'm honest, I don't even know why I decided to use Star San. It may have been because I'd been reading/hearing a lot about it, but I suspect it was because it seems to have no use by date. Iodophor does and while it doesn't exactly break the bank at 3.75 per litre (plus water and citric acid), I thought it a bit of a waste, as I wouldn't get through half a bottle before it expired. I may however return to iodophor/Videne and see if I can give half of it away before the date expires.

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MashBag
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:19 am

Binkie Huckaback wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:50 pm
.... think it's the homebrew community who've over-hyped it.
Tbh, I think the homebrew community overhype the whole subject of cleaning, sanitising and sterilising. I am not surprised business people saw an opportunity.

Contaminated by rinsing with tap water.. Really?
If that's a thing surely every kitchen in the land is unclean!

I have been brewing various beverages for years. 1000s of litres (really) without Starsan or bleach.
Without infection.

If it is good enough to cook its good enough to brew in IME.

Let's not frighten new brewers into thinking they need to be a chemist just to clean up!

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:01 am

Mashy, did you arrive at beer brewing via wine making by any chance? That seems to be where some of your superstitious opinions come from. Barley worts are very different from grape musts. Much more likely to become contaminated by unwanted bugs, for example. Beer too is more susceptible to off flavours for a number of reasons, including early infections. Your advice often seems counter productive and risky. Cleanliness is a prerequisite to good sanitation and considered best practice throughout the brewing world. Giving new brewers the impression it's all a 'myth' is utter bollocks, frankly.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:25 am

MashBag wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:19 am
I have been brewing various beverages for years. 1000s of litres (really) without Starsan or bleach.
Without infection.
Do you mean you don't sanitise any of your equipment? What do you do, just wash it in water?

Guy

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MashBag
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:21 am

As soon as possible I scrub my BM out, then use a caustic cleaner and a nylon brush. Rinsed thoroughly.

Seals and pumps stripped and cleaned.

For stubborn bits on the element I use a stainless scrubby. Lower tap means I have an easy drain.

Normally takes 15 to 20 mins.

Rinse. Dry and invert.

It is then covered with a towel - not the lid - ready for next brew.

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:44 am

Same procedure post boil? For your FVs and bottles/kegs?

Binkie Huckaback
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Binkie Huckaback » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:14 am

MashBag wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:19 am
Binkie Huckaback wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:50 pm
Contaminated by rinsing with tap water.. Really?
If that's a thing surely every kitchen in the land is unclean!

I have been brewing various beverages for years. 1000s of litres (really) without Starsan or bleach.
Without infection.

If it is good enough to cook its good enough to brew in IME.

Let's not frighten new brewers into thinking they need to be a chemist just to clean up!
You don't need to be a chemist to be able to clean and sanitise. You just need proper instructions.

Sorry to break the news, but kitchens are notoriously unclean places. And that includes professional kitchens. The water coming out of your tap is unlikely to be a problem, but the tap itself? When was the last time you tool it apart and gave it a good clean? Does everyone entering your kitchen from the garden or another room in the house remove their footwear and wear only footwear they wear in the kitchen? Or wear gloves and a mask in the kitchen? Do you prepare food in the kitchen? Is all the food completely free of bacteria when it enters the kitchen and especially when rinsed under the tap?

Bathrooms by comparison are relatively clean.

Unless your ingredients are completely free of anything that causes infection, you brew ferment, serve and drink in a sterile environment, wearing the appropriate clothing, that pint of beer or glass of wine you're about to drink is at risk of infection.

We can only hope to reduce the risk to levels where losing, say one in one hundred brews, rather than one in ten brews.

Do you really not sanitise at all? I'm sorry, but in my opinion, you've either been very lucky or you've been drinking your beer before an infection has developed.

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MashBag
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:24 am

Absolutely it is about reducing the risk.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:34 am

Do not get me wrong, we need to understand the level on cleanliness required. My point is many homebrewers imo are 'bleach queen's', to use common parlance. Over cleanliness imo is just as bad as under. For environmental and human health reasons.

I do not sanitise the kettle. It is throughly washed and dried before storage.

There is a boil and the end off mashing and then the mash is then fermented, which in parts is a cleaning process too.

I use alcohol for all other vessels and tools.... Never have 1/2 a bottle of vodka get infected 😂😂

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:38 am

:lol: Something suggests you're not very interested in having any control over your brewing process, to a level that allows you to reliably replicate your recipes. Kind of misses a fundamental aim in brewing generally, not just home brewing. In fact, recipes generally. I think there are one or two brewers on the forum who are qualified to judge beer and provide constructive feedback. I'd be interested how a collection of your beers scores, tbh. Including any constructive feedback. Like "Tastes like truck wash!" "Looks like truck wash!" :x

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