Saflager W-34/70

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McMullan

Re: Saflager W-34/70

Post by McMullan » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:05 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:28 pm
[quote=McMullan post_id=858576 time=<a href="tel:1626303501">1626303501</a> user_id=15744]
More likely a fallacy of incomplete evidence. A very limited study by itself. All they're saying really is it's possible lagering on yeast, for the recipe used, in terms of the non-volatile compounds measured, isn't significantly different, based on their analysis, from lagering without yeast, for the recipe used. We'd need considerably more research and independent confirmation before concluding anything meaningful here. Clearly, there are worthwhile benefits to lagering some beers. No pun intended. I'm sure there's a very good reason why lagering is done on the yeast traditionally without any noticeable negative impact on the final product. Even if it's just low temperatures maintaining yeast cell viability that allows it. Very convenient if you're a small brewery or home Brewer short on extra vessels for lagering. Whether it's necessary or not, based on non-volatile compounds, might not matter to some lager brewers.
All potentially believable, sans that (per Wikipedia) Charles Bamforth is an English scientist who specialises in malting and brewing. He is a former President of the Institute of Brewing and Distilling and was also the Anheuser-Busch Endowed 'Professor of Malting and Brewing Sciences' at University of California, Davis between 1999 and 2018. That is a rather sound basis for credibility.
[/quote]

So you don’t appreciate how science actually works then? Even the most credible scientists in the world need to get their experimental designs replicated independently and their results confirmed. Until then, until a scientific community of relative experts accepts what’s being presented, i.e., forms a consensus, all we have is opinion. Regardless how incredible this might seem to those who’d like to turn the world on its head for the sake of turning the world on its head. Regardless whose names are stamped on an individual publication, my upcoming lager is going to be lagered on the yeast for 4 weeks. Besides, my recipe, brewing practices and brewing environment deviate from their very limited experimental design :wink:

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Re: Saflager W-34/70

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:39 pm

McMullan wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:05 pm
So you don’t appreciate how science actually works then? Even the most credible scientists in the world need to get their experimental designs replicated independently and their results confirmed. Until then, until a scientific community of relative experts accepts what’s being presented, i.e., forms a consensus, all we have is opinion. Regardless how incredible this might seem to those who’d like to turn the world on its head for the sake of turning the world on its head. Regardless whose names are stamped on an individual publication, my upcoming lager is going to be lagered on the yeast for 4 weeks. Besides, my recipe, brewing practices and brewing environment deviate from their very limited experimental design :wink:
Please note carefully how I initiated this matter back on March 4th, with the 12th post made to this thread. The operative word there is "may"'. That opens the door to both scepticism and falsifiability. I'm thereby not saying that the paper is gospel. I'm rather addressing that it credibly opens the door to the potential uselessness of lagering. With the credibility of it extant within the who's who of those saying it. Likely they are well more credible than either of us. I'm confident that they are more credible than me.
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McMullan

Re: Saflager W-34/70

Post by McMullan » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:37 pm

I carefully noted why you bothered at all, to cherry-pick a paper from the scientific literature, misinterpret its reported findings (its limitations) then offer it up to counter perfectly acceptable advice already given to a novice home brewer brewing his first lager. To turn the world on its head, possibly for the sake of turning the world on its head. I find such behaviour very unhelpful. Even annoying. Especially when the current consensus, in the literature and among established Brewers, is that a lagering period can be very beneficial for lager style beers.

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Re: Saflager W-34/70

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:39 pm

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
- Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher

Many are now finding (in the USA and Canada at least) that they can make great "lager" beers by fermenting (so-called) lager yeasts at 'proper' ale temperatures, and foregoing extended cold storage. If it tastes clean, with lager-like malt and hop expression, and freedom from esters (at a noticeable level) like a "lager", it's quite effectively a lager. Much discussion and experimentation regarding this subject appears routinely on prominent brewing forums in the USA/Canada. With much reported success that runs counter to old school guides and guidelines.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

McMullan

Re: Saflager W-34/70

Post by McMullan » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:27 pm

That was very philosophical. The ‘truth’ aye? Whatever that means to biased philosophers :lol: Science is about data and its quality control, not philosophical world views. What some consider ‘acceptable’ as a lager in North America doesn’t interest me in the slightest. I don’t even like lager generally. But if I’m in Germany I’ll happily drink what’s brewed locally there. A totally different league in terms of lager. When I brew a lager that’s what I’m trying to emulate. Not American home brewers cutting corners and pretending to be cool. The mysterious yeast calculators alone - especially for fermenting a lager - say more than enough, thanks. Mental masturbation’s one thing, but pretending to do it with scientific credibility is something else :lol:

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Re: Saflager W-34/70

Post by john luc » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:31 pm

What I am trying to understand about the large temperature range offered up when using this yeast is why do I choose one over the other. So I use this yeast at 9C and ferment slowly, or, use this yeast at 19C and put under 5 psi pressure. Am I going to have the same results or am I going to have 2 different finished beers. :!:
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Re: Saflager W-34/70

Post by john luc » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:48 pm

I am planning a Maibock brew and was also planning to conditioning it for 4 months at 0.0C. My brewing experience tells me to ferment at 9C as I am not sure about what flavors you will end up with the higher temperature :?
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Re: Saflager W-34/70

Post by Cobnut » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:58 am

I have made some more-than-passable lagers fermented under pressure.

Search on here and you will find my "slides" I presented to my local HBC on my experiences.

My method - currently in use for a "dry hopped lager" (a la Adnams) - is to ferment under c. 1 BAR (15psi) of pressure starting at 18C and raising 2C per day until you reach 24C (yes, 24C) for a final 2 days. I then drop the temperature as low as I can reasonably manage and leave it to lager on the yeast for at least 2 weeks; my fridge will get down to close to 0C.

In this case I am using MJ Bohemian Lager yeast.
Fermenting: nowt
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA
Drinking: Sunshine Marmalade, Festbier, Helles Bock, Smokey lagery beer, Irish Export StoutCascade APA (homegrown hops), Orval clone, Impy stout, Duvel clone, Conestoga (American Barley wine)
Planning: Dark Mild, Kozel dark (ish), Simmonds Bitter, Bitter, Citra PA and more!

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