Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

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Jase
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Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Jase » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:03 am

So I brewed on Sunday, perfectly normal brewday with my 3V system. Aerated the wort as I normally do with a paddle in an electric drill (which has never caused me a problem before) and then pitched the yeast, which was a packet of Wyeast 1028 Londan ale. I was a little concerned because the smack pack didn't inflate at all, despite being activated several hours before hand, and being kept at room temperature (in my kitchen).

So I pitched the yeast at around 10pm Sunday night. I normally see the first sign of fermentation within around 12-18 hours for an ale yeast, however by 10 am the next day it was completely flat, no sign of anything. I was concerned that there may have been a problem with the yeast, mainly becaue the pack didn't appear to react or expand at all. Fortunately I have another pack of this yeast, so I took it out of the fridge, brought it into the house and once it was a little warmer, activated the pack. Once again, after two hours, the pack was nicely warm in the house, but there was absolutely no sign of any activation or expansion in the yeast pack.
I decided to pitch it anyway, which was around 11am yesterday.
I gave it 12 hours and checked the wort last night at 11pm, and once again it was looking completely flat. So I re-aerated the wort with a paddle so that it was nicely foaming.

I have just checked the wort again this morning, it is once again completely flat, with no sign of any activity.

Fortunately I have an extra pack of S-04, so I am going to rehydrate that yeast now and then re-aerate the wort again and pitch this yeast. I can only hope that the wort won't pick up an infection because it is sitting at 21C and the current yeast is doing nothing.

I have never ever had a problem with yeast not taking off like this, especially ale yeast. I had a perfectly normal brew day, the wort is at 21C, the OG is 1048 so it is not strong. The only thing I can conclude is that there was a problem with both batches of Wyeast 1028, which came from the same supplier (they are in date, exp Apr 2021 and were delivered last Friday). Is it worth contacting the supplier and explaining what has happened? It is a well known online supplier in the UK. At the very least I'm annoyed because I've wasted two packs of yeast and there is a chance this batch may go off. Do you think I can ask for a refund, or at least, replacement packs of yeast? Or are they just going to say there are too many factors.
Thanks
J
Last edited by Jase on Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

guypettigrew
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:17 am

Hi Jase.

How about just contacting the supplier with the bare bones of the story and asking for advice? You won't know what the supplier is going to say until it's been said!

If you feel a refund is appropriate you can leave asking for one until after you've heard back from the seller. Unless you're offered one straight off, of course.

Guy

Jase
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Jase » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:23 am

Yes, as I was writing the above description I was thinking I should pretty much just copy and paste it and send it to them and see what they say...

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Dennis King
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Dennis King » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:11 am

I see no mention of a making a starter? Even when in date a starter is still recommended,

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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by f00b4r » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:32 am

Dennis King wrote:I see no mention of a making a starter? Even when in date a starter is still recommended,
If that date is correct though that pack cannot be more than a few weeks old, although I would agree that a starter gives you a better start and also confirms that the yeast is alive and kicking.

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FUBAR
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by FUBAR » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:47 am

As mentioned a starter is always advisable , plus I have never , ever had a pack of Wyeast swell up after actuating the smack pack .
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Jase
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Jase » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:01 am

So I don't normally make a starter with this type of ale, normally with an OG around 1044 (to be fair, this batch is a little stronger at 1048). Normally I pitch rehydrated dry yeast or an activated smack pack and first signs that fermentation is underway is generally very quick, 12-18 hours. Currently it has had 100 billion cells for 36 hours and then another 100 billion for a spot under 24 hours. So that's a total of 200 billion yeast cells for at least a day. Are you saying that isn't sufficient? Do you think the slightly increased gravity has required a larger pitch rate? What sort of pitch rate would you be using for this type of ale?
Thanks

guypettigrew
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:02 am

FUBAR wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:47 am
As mentioned a starter is always advisable , plus I have never , ever had a pack of Wyeast swell up after actuating the smack pack .
Me neither, plus smacking the pack is never quite as easy as you're led to believe!

Which is why I swapped to White Labs. Much simpler. Open the sachet and pour it into the prepared starter wort.

Guy

Jase
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Jase » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:23 am

I used to make starters a few years ago, when I bought Whitelabs and harvested the yeast, but one day I had an unexpected opportunity to brew and didn't have a starter ready. Pitched a rehydrated pack of S-04 I kept as a spare and woof, the fermentation took off. So these days I rarely make starters.
Perhaps the Wyeast pack not swelling up is not a factor, if that is often an occurance for others. In which case this is a really long lag time, for a yeast that doesn't appear to normally suffer from a long lag. that's why I thought that perhaps the pack not swelling up was a factor.

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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Trefoyl » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:38 pm

It usually takes several hours for the pack to swell unless it’s very, very fresh. I wait for it to swell to be sure it’s active, then pitch into a starter. Imperial is the only liquid yeast I pitch directly and that has a shorter shelf life.
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Jase
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Jase » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:26 pm

So there were first signs of the fermentation last night, and this morning it had a massive krausen. With 200 billion London Ale cells and 100 billion S-04 all pitched into the yeast, I am sure now that it is going it will be over fairly quickly.

Maybe I'll reconsider and start doing starters again...

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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Bretty Biscuit » Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:38 pm

What volume of wort do/did you have? For example, 23L and a gravity of 1.048 you would require 205 billion cells, S04 contains around 69BC, liquid yeast viability reduces by 21% per month, 0.7% per day. So, a day fresh smack pack & S04 would leave you 45BC’s short on a 23L batch.

Jase
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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Jase » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:10 pm

If that figure of 21% is correct, then that would probably explain it. The manufacturing date on the packs was July!

I had a spot over 20L in the FV and for the last couple of years been following the BYO article which estimated 6M cells per mL for wort below 1060. I had 20L in the FV, which gives me a requirement of 120B yeast cells. The smack pack should have contained minimum 100B. So, agreed it was slightly under. I then pitched another 100B from the 2nd smack pack. Finally the dry S-04 which if you are right is closer to 70B not 100B. 100B was from memory, but having not checked I'll take your word for it.

With that in mind, I have had plenty of similar 20L batches that have shown first signs of fermentation within 12 hours by using one pack of S-04 or Danstar Nottingham, and 12-18 hours with various ale smack packs. Hence when there was absolutely nothing from the first pack, and also absolutely nothing from the second, I believe that something wasn't right with the packs.

I've never bought from this supplier before, but my normal supplier was out of stock. It never even occurred to me that the packs would be too far out of date.

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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by guypettigrew » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:14 pm

Bretty Biscuit wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:38 pm
What volume of wort do/did you have? For example, 23L and a gravity of 1.048 you would require 205 billion cells, S04 contains around 69BC, liquid yeast viability reduces by 21% per month, 0.7% per day. So, a day fresh smack pack & S04 would leave you 45BC’s short on a 23L batch.
Goodness! Does that mean a wort of 23 litres at about 1.050 would require 3 packs of S-04 to give around 200 billion cells?

Guy

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Re: Was my yeast bad, should I complain?

Post by Bretty Biscuit » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:24 pm

Yes or 1Pk and a starter, reckon you’d get away with 2 packs though if no starter.


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