Water profile help

[data790]

Hi,

Just a quick one (oooh er) but I am a little confused with the water profile tool on Beersmith. OK so first thing is my water profile which is ppm:

7 Ca
0.3 Mg
20 HCO3

and nothing fro the rest... yes this was tested.

So I want to brew a pale ale (old speckled hen clone) using Burton on Trent water profile which is:

Ca 295
Mg 45
Na 55
So4 725
Cl 25
HCO3 300

So the additions are going to be high anyway.

Mash schedule is: 16.7 l 60 min and sparge 17.7 l, which is 34.4 l. Do I set the water additions to 34.4 l or just for the 16.7 l mash?

Beersmith calculates the additions thus:

34.4 l

31.3 g gypsum
18.9 g Epsom salt
1.5 g CaCl
8.2 g NaHCO3
6 g Chalk

I really appreciate your help guys and experience. I did alter the water of a Belgian Leffe blonde and that really made a lot of difference to the final product, so I am trying to play around with this idea now and learn a bit.

All the best and have a beer on election day.

[Aleman]

That profile is completely crap for a Pale ale . . . In fact it's pretty crap for Burton as well.

Alkalinity should be between 30 and 50, depending on how pale the beer is . . . lower is better for very pale beers, So recommending 300 is just wrong! So that eliminates the NaHCO3 and Chalk additions, your 20mg/l will be fine as it is.

Magnesium of 45?? :hmm: well anything over 5mg/l is more than sufficient so try just 1.3g of magnesium sulphate in the mash liquor

Sulphate of 725 You kidding me?? think about going for around 350 as a maximum, remember this is an OSH clone and as such wouldn't be brewed with a Burton Profile . . . Beers in Burton are not brewed with that profile either Occasionally you get a batch out of Marstons that has had higher sulphate than 'normal' and you get the good old whiff of Burton Snatch . . . It's a characteristic of Church End Brewery beers as well. So that would half your Gypsum Addition, so say 15g of which I personally would put 10g in the mash and 5 g in the boiler . . . For good measure I would probably add 3g of calcium chloride to the mash as well . . .and possibly 2g to the boiler.

[data790]

Cheers Aleman.

I was thinking the additions were a little on the high side. I was led to believe that Burton on Trent was a good pale ale profile, happily I checked before doing any practical stuff.

[Eric]

In total agreement with Aleman.

Hi,

Just a quick one (oooh er) but I am a little confused with the water profile tool on Beersmith. OK so first thing is my water profile which is ppm:

7 Ca
0.3 Mg
20 HCO3

and nothing fro the rest... yes this was tested.

Those are really low figures, seems like your water comes almost straight from the sky.

So I want to brew a pale ale (old speckled hen clone) using Burton on Trent water profile which is:

Ca 295
Mg 45
Na 55
So4 725
Cl 25
HCO3 300

I've got figures like those for Burton too, but also others as they had several waters from different strata which they could blend and no doubt did other things too. Can I suggest you keep that profile for later, after trying something more middle of the road?

So the additions are going to be high anyway.

Mash schedule is: 16.7 l 60 min and sparge 17.7 l, which is 34.4 l. Do I set the water additions to 34.4 l or just for the 16.7 l mash?

Beersmith calculates the additions thus:

34.4 l

31.3 g gypsum
18.9 g Epsom salt
1.5 g CaCl
8.2 g NaHCO3
6 g Chalk

I really appreciate your help guys and experience. I did alter the water of a Belgian Leffe blonde and that really made a lot of difference to the final product, so I am trying to play around with this idea now and learn a bit.

All the best and have a beer on election day.

Can't help you with Beersmith, but I'm sure there are plenty who can.
Thanks, but have been thinking it might be better to take a night off drinking considering what has happened of late.

[data790]

Yeah we have really great water for drinking in Norway - the best is from the North I am told. It may also explain why norwegian beers are crap ha ha (I speak of Rigners and Hansa lagers). I think the advice I have from yourself Eric and Alesman are great and I will use the suggested starting concentrations before I dabble.

[Eric]

Yeah we have really great water for drinking in Norway - the best is from the North I am told. It may also explain why norwegian beers are crap ha ha (I speak of Rigners and Hansa lagers). I think the advice I have from yourself Eric and Alesman are great and I will use the suggested starting concentrations before I dabble.

I've no memory of having the pleasure of drinking Norwegian beer, so can't comment although had a really nice sweet dark beer once in Sweden. What I have had were some very wonderful nights drinking with Norwegians for company, here in my home town, at sea and in a few European countries. Those occasions I shall never forget.

[AnthonyUK]

Yeah we have really great water for drinking in Norway - the best is from the North I am told. It may also explain why norwegian beers are crap ha ha (I speak of Rigners and Hansa lagers). I think the advice I have from yourself Eric and Alesman are great and I will use the suggested starting concentrations before I dabble.

It looks to be a decent water for brewing that requires some additions which is often easier than removing something
You have fallen in to the trap of using a geographical water profile rather than one based on a style. Do you know what the breweries did to treat the water?
Stick to a few simple steps: Remove any chlorines , adjust alkalinity for correct mash pH, ensure you have enough calcium, have a sulphate : chloride ratio to suit your style.

[data790]

Yeah we have really great water for drinking in Norway - the best is from the North I am told. It may also explain why norwegian beers are crap ha ha (I speak of Rigners and Hansa lagers). I think the advice I have from yourself Eric and Alesman are great and I will use the suggested starting concentrations before I dabble.

I've no memory of having the pleasure of drinking Norwegian beer, so can't comment although had a really nice sweet dark beer once in Sweden. What I have had were some very wonderful nights drinking with Norwegians for company, here in my home town, at sea and in a few European countries. Those occasions I shall never forget.

Sweden has more to offer, but in recent years these small micro brewries have been popping up all over Norway and homebrewing becoming more popular has seen some really good (yet expensive) beers come to the shops. Alas, being an Englishman I had to build a bar in my basement which serves me well with 2 x king kegs and a 3rd on the way. But with new kegs comes better brewing ideas and hence asking more questions. I like the response from AnthonyUK about not matching geographical profiles but style. Does anyone know a good website or indeed a good book I canread to get to grips with these water profiles?

Cheers again fellas

[Aleman]

I like the response from AnthonyUK about not matching geographical profiles but style. Does anyone know a good website or indeed a good book I can read to get to grips with these water profiles?

Well the BJCP has the most complete book on styles, unfortunately that is blinkered coming from the US, I'm not saying it's wrong but perceptions are coloured by what beers are available over there and how the tolerate the journey.

The style book I go by is Zainasheffs brewing Classic Styles, unfortunately (actually a relief) it has 4 pages on water treatment, and no description of what water ions are desired to assist the style. However if you remember some very simple guidelines you won't go far wrong.

1) Low alkalinity water for pale beers ~ 30mg/L, gradually increasing as the beers get darker or the level of crystal malt increases up to about a maximum of 120-130. (Determine your desired maximum by trial and error when brewing). Use potassium or sodium bicarbonate to do this easily

2) Minimum of 60mg/L calcium, although anything up to 300 is perfectly OK

3) Add salts containing sulphate (calcium or magnesium sulphate, but no need t add more than 5mg/L magnesium) to increase the perception of dryness and hop bitterness

4) Add Salts containing chloride (calcium) to increase the perceived sweetness, pallet fullness, and overall maltiness of the beer

5) As a general rule try and keep the sulphate to chloride ratio between 2:1 to 1:2 for well 'balanced' beers, but feel free to go outside this range to push the envelope . . . . and a 300mg/L sulphate to 0mg/L may well be exceptionally harsh . . . A chloride heavy beer with little sulphate . . . is just a bit meh! soft muddied, blurred, confused . . .you need some sulphate to make the flavours 'sing and become 'sharper'

[data790]

Nice one thanks. Something new to learn.

[Jocky]

I'd expect that a couple of pints with 45ppm Magnesium and 725ppm Sulphate would have a somewhat laxative effect.