Which way to go?

[Piscator]

So...now I am armed with the information from my WallyBrew analysis (thank you Neil) I find I have alkalinity in the region of 160mg/l and a sulphate to chloride ratio of 5:1 in my tap water (104mg/l : 20.9mg/l - I knew my beers had changed after moving house!) After spending much time pondering the best way to tackle this aspect of my water there seems to be a choice of two approaches open to me assuming I want to create a "balanced" sulphate:chloride ratio for brewing a typical pale ale with middle of the road IBU's.
My calcium is 84.4 mg/l and the "British" approach seems to take the format of reducing alkalinity using AMS then using calcium chloride to re-balance the sulphate to chloride and push calcium up to about 150mg/l.
The US style of approach looks more like accepting the calcium level as okay and using hydrochloric acid to reduce alkalinity and balance the sulphate:chloride ratio without needng to add any other salts.

What would be the relative merits/drawbacks of either approach and why do the US water profiles tend to have comparatively much lower calcium target levels?

Cheers
Steve

[Goulders]

Because the Americans don't understand British beers? Have a look at some of Eric's and Aleman's posts in the water treatment threads. You'll find all the answers there. Actually I have read Eric uses HCl to reduce alkalinity but it is difficult to get hold of I think. If I had your ratios I would use HCl viz AMS and use Calcium Chloride to increase calcium levels. Wallybrew also has good tips on treatment so maybe ask him too.

[Dave S]

Because the Americans don't understand British beers? Have a look at some of Eric's and Aleman's posts in the water treatment threads. You'll find all the answers there. Actually I have read Eric uses HCl to reduce alkalinity but it is difficult to get hold of I think. If I had your ratios I would use HCl viz AMS and use Calcium Chloride to increase calcium levels. Wallybrew also has good tips on treatment so maybe ask him too.

You can get HCl here. It's listed at 33%, so ideally should be diluted by 50% to increase from 1 litre to 2.

[Eric]

Hi Steve, last question first.
I'd suppose geology, climate and history and the fact we are separated by a large ocean have all played major parts in that difference.

The joys of beer were well established in Europe before they crossed that ocean, the North American population until then seemed content to smoke for recreation and the devistating effect of alcohol on their lives was well documented.
While there are many exceptions, the most heavily populated parts of North America have natural waters with significantly less calcium than those in the equivalently populated parts of the United Kingdom, the barleys that grew there in earlier times were different too and thus their malts. With lower quality malts and soft water I suspect beers made by imigrant British brewers would be poor in comparison to those made by brewers from more central Europe with experience using similar ingredients. I think too there must have been some influence on progress during the years of prohibition.

By your question you obviously know how to do whatever you decide to do, so I'll advise this. If you want a natural good looking beer ready to drink in the shortest time, make it using more than a minimal amount of calcium.
Yesterday I brewed my fifth version of a brew starting November last with only minor variations to the recipe, but using 3 radically different water profiles and 2 yeasts. The world's your oyster, happy brewing.
Eric.

[Goulders]

Because the Americans don't understand British beers? Have a look at some of Eric's and Aleman's posts in the water treatment threads. You'll find all the answers there. Actually I have read Eric uses HCl to reduce alkalinity but it is difficult to get hold of I think. If I had your ratios I would use HCl viz AMS and use Calcium Chloride to increase calcium levels. Wallybrew also has good tips on treatment so maybe ask him too.

You can get HCl here. It's listed at 33%, so ideally should be diluted by 50% to increase from 1 litre to 2.

Is that food grade? I have seen a post in which you responded to a query from Eric about 18 months ago where you recommended a laboratory grade acid that wasn't food grade. Perhaps this one is though?

[Piscator]

Hi Steve, last question first.
I'd suppose geology, climate and history and the fact we are separated by a large ocean have all played major parts in that difference.

The joys of beer were well established in Europe before they crossed that ocean, the North American population until then seemed content to smoke for recreation and the devistating effect of alcohol on their lives was well documented.
While there are many exceptions, the most heavily populated parts of North America have natural waters with significantly less calcium than those in the equivalently populated parts of the United Kingdom, the barleys that grew there in earlier times were different too and thus their malts. With lower quality malts and soft water I suspect beers made by imigrant British brewers would be poor in comparison to those made by brewers from more central Europe with experience using similar ingredients. I think too there must have been some influence on progress during the years of prohibition.

By your question you obviously know how to do whatever you decide to do, so I'll advise this. If you want a natural good looking beer ready to drink in the shortest time, make it using more than a minimal amount of calcium.
Yesterday I brewed my fifth version of a brew starting November last with only minor variations to the recipe, but using 3 radically different water profiles and 2 yeasts. The world's your oyster, happy brewing.
Eric.

Eric, thanks for an interesting and informative reply. As you say I'm happy with the process of making the adjustments and understand the chemistry but was interested in the different approaches and have an open mind. I think I will use the "British" approach as I have AMS and calcium chloride on hand and this route would probably suit the styles I tend to brew most often. I am also working on a similar project repeat brewing a recipe with the aim of optimising it for my tastebuds - the next version should be much more balanced!

Cheers
Steve

[Eric]

My HCl is not food grade, I was unable to find any supplier willing to sell to individuals. Had I still been in business there would be no problem even though I wasn't in food preparation or manufacture. The spec I saw satisfied me that at levels I use, the finished product is well within food standards. Getting to see a comprehensive spec isn't easy.

[Eric]

Eric, thanks for an interesting and informative reply. As you say I'm happy with the process of making the adjustments and understand the chemistry but was interested in the different approaches and have an open mind. I think I will use the "British" approach as I have AMS and calcium chloride on hand and this route would probably suit the styles I tend to brew most often. I am also working on a similar project repeat brewing a recipe with the aim of optimising it for my tastebuds - the next version should be much more balanced!

Cheers
Steve

AMS will do that job well. That's another difference, it's not available in the USA and if it were we might be hearing different accounts.

[Piscator]

Because the Americans don't understand British beers? Have a look at some of Eric's and Aleman's posts in the water treatment threads. You'll find all the answers there. Actually I have read Eric uses HCl to reduce alkalinity but it is difficult to get hold of I think. If I had your ratios I would use HCl viz AMS and use Calcium Chloride to increase calcium levels. Wallybrew also has good tips on treatment so maybe ask him too.

Yes, the AMS/calcium chloride route is the one I will take. I am a tech manager in the food industry so food grade hydrochloric is available to me via our chemical suppliers but I was intrigued by the different emphasis placed on calcium levels by US brewers. Since I tend to favour brewing more traditional British style ales it makes sense to use more traditional levels of calcium however if I fancy making a big US style C hop monster I may do things differently out of interest.

Cheers
Steve

[Dave S]

Because the Americans don't understand British beers? Have a look at some of Eric's and Aleman's posts in the water treatment threads. You'll find all the answers there. Actually I have read Eric uses HCl to reduce alkalinity but it is difficult to get hold of I think. If I had your ratios I would use HCl viz AMS and use Calcium Chloride to increase calcium levels. Wallybrew also has good tips on treatment so maybe ask him too.

You can get HCl here. It's listed at 33%, so ideally should be diluted by 50% to increase from 1 litre to 2.

Is that food grade? I have seen a post in which you responded to a query from Eric about 18 months ago where you recommended a laboratory grade acid that wasn't food grade. Perhaps this one is though?

Can't remember what that recommendation was, but as Eric points out, we are using them in such small quantities that they would need to be a very low spec to do any harm. Laboratory grade is fine by me.

[Goulders]

May look into it then. I might be able to scrounge some hcl of a local brewer as I won't need much

[Dave S]

May look into it then. I might be able to scrounge some hcl of a local brewer as I won't need much

Aye, that's an issue having to buy a litre, turning it into 2 litres and all you need is a few mls per brew.

[Eric]

May look into it then. I might be able to scrounge some hcl of a local brewer as I won't need much

Aye, that's an issue having to buy a litre, turning it into 2 litres and all you need is a few mls per brew.

Even more so with hydrochloric as it's most likely to be used for darker beers requiring a lesser reduction in alkalinity.
No commercial brewer I've asked has admitted to using hydrochloric acid.

[Aleman]

My calcium is 84.4 mg/l and the "British" approach seems to take the format of reducing alkalinity using AMS then using calcium chloride to re-balance the sulphate to chloride and push calcium up to about 150mg/l.
The US style of approach looks more like accepting the calcium level as okay and using hydrochloric acid to reduce alkalinity and balance the sulphate:chloride ratio without needing to add any other salts.

Actually Steve, I think that is an incorrect statement of the situation.

The US approach is to use phosphoric acid to reduce the alkalinity, and ignore the Sulphate:chloride ratio, and especially keep the chloride as low as possible.

The British approach (using commercial products), Is to use AMS and DWB to try and fix a sulphate:chloride ratio of 2:1

The British Approach (Using a wider variety of products) is to reduce alkalinity using hydrochloric and sulphuric acids to tailor the sulphate to chloride ratio where the brewer wants it while leaving the calcium level untouched, unless the calcium needs to be increased in which case a combination of calcium sulphate and calcium chloride is used. These brewers are not intimidated by a high chloride level . . . Or indeed by high levels of any particular ion, but use appropriate products to change the water to have the effect they want in the final beer

[Piscator]

Every day a school day - thanks for your input Tony.

Cheers
Steve