T.D.S

[barneey]

Can anyone please calculate the TDS on this water profile please.

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Calcium    -    27.6
Magnesium  -     5.1
Sodium     -    14.2
Potassium  -     0.6

Sulphate   -    43.7
Chloride   -    12.4
Phosphate  -     5.5
Nitrate    -     1.6

Alkalinity -    52.0

pH 6.94

Many Thanks

[Dave S]

135.1 Unless you do it the correct way by evaporation, in which case I don't know

[barneey]

Many Thanks,

IMO there is a fault in the latest version of Brunwater 3.40 I have its taking the Calcium amount into consideration twice, if you have a previous version of the calculator check it out for yourselves, guess we have to wait for a further update then?

[Lockwood16]

Hi Barneey, I too have recently upgraded to the v3.4 Brun'water. I have been using the earlier supported version for about a year now.

Could you please explain to me your thoughts regarding the software taking the calcium content twice, and what can be done about this.

I have had a very quick look, and the only difference that I can see, is a small difference in the "styles" of beer. For example, there is a difference of 5ppm between the old and new versions in the calcium profile of "Amber Balanced".

I understand there may be other issues too.

Look forward to hearing from you to put me right!!

Best regards,
Lockwood 16

[Aleman]

What Clive is talking about is that if you enter the alkalinity as Carbonate you get one value for the TDS, if you convert the carbonate value to bicarbonate and enter it you get a different value for the TDS, in one calculation it includes the calcium value twice for TDS.

Just one thing with Beer or water 'Profiles', don't fall into the trap of thinking that those are the only way that you can make that style of beer, you can make the same style of beer with widely differing water styles, and who knows? You might actually enjoy the flavour more than from the 'correct' one

[Lockwood16]

Thanks Aleman, having started brewing all grain just over a year and a half ago, along with getting to grips with yeast slants, building PID control panels, HERMS, etc, the water treatment was an additional science to get my head around. The control engineering was easy for me as this was my profession, but I felt that using the water treatment spreadsheets was an improvement on my earlier brews where the water was not adjusted.

My water is relatively soft at around 40ppm Calcium, so I guess I am lucky in that respect. I also check the calcium and alkalinity values using the Salifert test kits before each brew day and plug those values into Bru'nwater.

I still have a lot to learn regarding the entire process of brewing good beer, and take your point about being fixated on a particular water profile. For me, at least, it was a starting point to give me some idea as to the ball park I needed to be in.

Thanks again for keeping me right !

Best regards,

Lockwood 16

[Aleman]

My water is relatively soft at around 40ppm Calcium, so I guess I am lucky in that respect. I also check the calcium and alkalinity values using the Salifert test kits before each brew day

Those are the checks I do each and every brew day, in addition I've also been having water profiles done professionally over the last year, so that from the calcium, alkalinity and TDS readings I have a reasonable idea as to what the other ions are like.

This is what my water profile has looked like for the last year, so far I haven't hit the way off alkalinity of 135, that I saw a few years ago, but it would be nice if it did so, just so that I can see what the other values are.

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              2015                                              2014
              26th Jun  28th May  26th Mar  21st Feb  21st Jan  22nd Nov  28th Oct  11th Feb 
Calcium    -    24.5      23.1      17.8      20.6     14.8       30.8      35.7      24.3
Magnesium  -     4.3       4.0       3.0       3.3      2.1        6.9       8.3       3.1
Sodium     -    16.6      13.0      11.3      12.0      8.2       15.4      16.2      12.0  
Potassium  -     0.7       0.7       0.7       0.9     <0.5        0.6       1.0       0.7

Sulphate   -    50.3      44.1      33.3      37.3     27.4       50.6      68.2      42.8
Chloride   -    12.0      12.5      12.0      11.3      8.5       11.7      15.6      11.1
Phosphate  -     5.2      7.0        6.1       6.8      5.9        6.2       6.2       4.7
Nitrate    -     1.5       1.7       1.9       1.7      1.3        1.7       2.1       1.3

Alkalinity -    44.0      34.0      30.0      33.0     18.0       67.0      67.0      32.0  

Take your point about being fixated on a particular water profile. For me, at least, it was a starting point to give me some idea as to the ball park I needed to be in.

Yeah, I keep getting 'told off' and reminded that "We don't need to add calcium as it's all supplied by the malt" and yet without it, my beers are lackluster. We have a great history of regional beer flavours just in this country, let alone brewed throughout the world, and the current 'trend' that we are seeing on the forums of fixating on mash pH (as long as it's in the range 5.2 to 5.7/8 its ok), and avoiding excessive mineralisation, will lead to a homogenisation of beer flavour, down to a least offensive denominator (sort of like the Mcdonalds of the beer trends).

In the 1870's the vast influx of brewers into Burton was not because of it's low calcium, low chloride and moderate sulphate levels. I keep hearing brewers state that they have to use RO to reduce their mineral levels as they would have to use too much acid to reduce their alkalinity. It may well be that the product they are using to adjust alkalinity is not suitable for the level they have (CRS for example it's designed to achieve a 2:1 sulphate to chloride ratio as a minimum, and even worse when combined with DWB), other acids may well be beet indicated. Why not brew with what they have? Could they be worried about introducing flavour into their beers??

[Lockwood16]

Thanks Aleman, for your reply.

I have just today been arranging for a professional water profile (from advice from members on this forum), to validate the information given to me by the water company.

My water profile at present is:
Calcium 30.0
Magnesium 4.8
Sodium 7.4
Potassium 1.1
Iron 0.0
ph 7.5
Bicarbonate and Carbonate are estimated from the reported total alkalinity (36) or temporary hardness as CaCo3(mg/L or ppm) (Bru'nwater)
Sulphate 51.0
Chloride 14.0
Nitrate NO3 3.5
Nitrate NO2 0.0
Fluoride 0.1

The thing is Aleman, not having a degree in chemistry, I can only go by what information I am given. I therefore am probably working a little blind on this subject, trusting the calculators, and punching in the numbers, not really understanding whether this would prove to be the best outcome.

I agree with your comments about lacklustre beer. In my short experience in brewing, I have found that by adding Calcium chloride, along with Calcium definitely increases my perception of the taste to my beer. I also use lactic acid to get the mash in the "correct" ph range. This again was a little confusing to me as a new all grainer, I don't have the experience at this stage to be able to say what difference a lower or higher mash ph may have on the resulting beer. As a result, I have been playing it "safe" and going with general recommendations ie around 5.3 for example for a pale ale, slightly more for a darker, maltier beer.

Any advice you are able to impart on this matter would be very greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
Lockwood 16