Buxton Water for brewing?

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
Galena
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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by Galena » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:16 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:39 pm
You wont see any "calcium carbonate" reported, because there isn't any! What Northern Brewer was quoting from the water company website was "as CaCO3" but the "as" is often left off. It's a convenient way of describing such things. All "carbonate" will actually be "bicarbonate" at the reported pH7.4 (carbonate chemistry and "alkalinity" scrambles most peoples heads, mine for sure).

The water analysis is typical of acid moorland surface runoff, but a bit high in bicarbonate because in Derbyshire you are never far from the chalk.

Not so long ago I got involved in a mammoth thread that attracted some water "heavyweights" like Wally and Eric (plus "Silver is Money" from the States, author of "Mash made easy"). Find it here: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=82202. It's a bit of a long read but I bet you can learn more than from it than Mr Palmer's book. And it wont be distorted (much) by some weird "American" ideas about water.

As already mentioned, you will probably find your own tap water isn't much different from the one you've quoted in the OP. Get Wally to test it. I don't think any Derbyshire tap water is bore (ground) water, which would be heavily influenced by the chalk (very, very, alkaline). I used to live in Derbyshire BTW.
Helpful, thank you. That United Utilities link was great, my kind of level ;) so I see where CAC03 is coming from.
The linked thread is good reading but will probably take me a while to work through and take it and as you say at least it isn't Americanised.

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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by Northern Brewer » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 pm

Galena wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:20 pm
I just checked my postcode and its the same, though I could not see CaC0 Calcium Carbonate on the list at all?
Now I need to read up why I need to add gypsum and calcium chloride ;)
Hardness is the one thing that "normal" consumers are interested in, so the water authorities often split it off (it's at the top of the ST page, above the table) - but there's all sorts of different ways of presenting it. The UK, France, and Germany all have their traditional units, so it's quite common to present it as ppm of calcium carbonate equivalents. ST don't, I converted it for convenience as it's easier to think of everything in ppm for brewing purposes.

The simple version is that sulphate enhances the perception of crisp bitterness, chloride helps the perception of maltiness and a softer style. Traditionally you'd have at least 100ppm of each in British beers, often more, with 2:1or more SO4:Cl in traditional bitter. But there's been a general move in recent years to reduce that ratio, and even flip it to that eg many NEIPAs are 1:2 SO4:Cl. To some extent it's a matter of taste. The choice to use gypsum and/or calcium chloride (usually both with your water) is about whether you want the ratio skewed towards sulphate or chloride. The reason Burton became a brewing hotspot was that its well water has crazy amounts of sulphate in it which gave the bitterness that the Victorians were looking for.

You need calcium for best functioning of the mash enzymes and for yeast flocculation among other things - USians like a minimum of 50ppm Ca in their water, the British 100ppm minimum.

This Murphy article is a good brief introduction to water chemistry, and suggests (calcium/sulphate/chloride) :

Bitter 170/400/200
Mild 100/150/200
Porter 100/100/300
Lager 50/10/10

Most US forumites will recoil in horror at that level of minerals.

There's plenty of water calculators kicking around the web (not least here) that will tell you how much of each chemical you will need given your starting water and the target - I suggest trying a couple and seeing which you get on with.

PS Peebee - there's no chalk (white crumbly stuff like the White Cliffs of Dover) in the Peak District, it's all limestone (hard, usually grey qv Buckingham Palace). Chemically very similar but there's a big geological difference!
Last edited by Northern Brewer on Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Galena
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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by Galena » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:49 am

Thank you NB, very informative and I am beginning to realise what a huge subject it is :shock:

when you said
This Murphy article is a good brief introduction to water chemistry, and suggests (calcium/sulphate/chloride) :
Was there meant to be a link to an article?
PS Peebee - there's no chalk (white crumbly stuff like the White Cliffs of Dover) in the Peak District, it's all limestone (hard, usually grey qv Buckingham Palace). Chemically very similar but there's a big geological difference!
I didn't like to say :wink: I thought there may be some brewing technicality that referred to chalk not limestone :D

So..... Lots of study then ...... :lol:

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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:54 am

Northern Brewer wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 pm
… PS Peebee - there's no chalk (white crumbly stuff like the White Cliffs of Dover) in the Peak District, it's all limestone (hard, usually grey qv Buckingham Palace). Chemically very similar but there's a big geological difference!
Oops. I should have been giving it the usual "quote" treatment. Yes, I know limestone, used to climb on the Derbyshire limestone crags. They (i.e. not me!) used to climb on the chalk White Cliffs … but with ice-axes! Still do perhaps? (Lunatics). The Derbyshire limestone contains a lot of magnesium carbonate (as well as the calcium variety) which dissolves more easily making for good finger-holds and the rock's often "bubbly" appearance.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by Northern Brewer » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:11 pm

Galena wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:49 am
Thank you NB, very informative and I am beginning to realise what a huge subject it is :shock:

when you said
This Murphy article is a good brief introduction to water chemistry, and suggests (calcium/sulphate/chloride) :
Was there meant to be a link to an article?
Bugger. Yes, I meant https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resource ... verywhere/ Now corrected.
Galena wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:49 am
I didn't like to say :wink: I thought there may be some brewing technicality that referred to chalk not limestone :D
Nah - although chalk does get used a bit as a general synonym for anything calcium carbonate, I've done enough geology to get picky about that sort of thing...
Galena wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:49 am
So..... Lots of study then ...... :lol:
Don't get too hung up on it, water is a classic case where 80+% of the benefit can be gained with 20% of the study. You're lucky having such "easy" water, you barely even need to worry about adding acid - my slightly more alkaline water needs just a splash (<1ml in 20l) of acid for a 100% pale malt grist. For the time being, you'll be in about the right place for a trad bitter with 8g gypsum and 5g CaCl2 in 20 litres - about 2 teaspoons of gypsum and 1.5 teaspoons of CaCl2 if they're milled fine, you have to eyeball it a bit if they're in granules.

Although it's great that some people get deep into the science of water treatment, I'm well aware how intimidating it can be for newcomers, and knowing how overwhelming it can be when you start getting into brewing, I'd far rather people did the 80/20 thing on water and then get a 80/20 grounding in all the other things, rather than start getting too deep into water and then deciding that maybe brewing is Too Complicated.

Except for yeast, you can never know enough about yeast. :)

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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by Galena » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:15 pm

Brilliant, thanks for the link and I shall heed your words :)

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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:28 am

Galena wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:15 pm
Brilliant, thanks for the link and I shall heed your words :)
Good! But be careful of his last sentence:
Northern Brewer wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:11 pm
… Except for yeast, you can never know enough about yeast. :)
I've spent a good bit of time messing with the complexities of yeast. And sharing this knowledge quickly attracts the attention the forum's own foul-mouthed, abusive, "troll". You have to be fairly resilient to deal with that. "Galena", take heed of that too!

I believe it (the troll) has even relocated to a more troll friendly location (Scandinavia)?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Galena
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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by Galena » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:13 pm

Every forum has at least one troll

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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:58 pm

Galena wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:13 pm
Every forum has at least one troll
Hey, I've dug you out a recent example (ID hidden ... ish). This is "Mark14" getting it in the neck. Remarkably I'm not being referred to anywhere in this one:
mark14 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:11 pm
Kveik lore will do that to you :lol: Seriously, I recognise 3 main groups who promote it online. Those making money out of it. Those who belief (quite mistakenly) that Norway is - or ever was - at the forefront of anything noteworthy other than skiing, raping and pillaging. And those who genuinely haven't got a fecking clue either way. There is a fourth - a propagandist who blogs until his little flag's content. He's full of shit, of course, by any stretch of the imagination :lol:
sorry if i have offended, it is only my forth brew toes in, so kvick is balls then, sorry gain
It's rather amusing if you can hide the personal (and entire nation!) references.

And I got something wrong ("troll friendly location"). I understand the real trolls would like him to go home now.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Galena
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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by Galena » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:37 pm

Troll by nature and troll by geography then ;)

McMullan

Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by McMullan » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:16 pm

:lol: A troll? That's [censored] hilarious. And very, very ironic. Deeply ironic, in fact. Small messengers from another home brew forum that focuses mainly on selling bullshit :lol:

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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by LeeH » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:20 pm

Galena wrote:
Mashman wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:30 pm
Ask the guys at Buxton Brewery?
Is that what they use then? Can't see anything on their website about the water they use
How did I miss this thread!

I doubt they import it from Yorkshire!


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Galena
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Re: Buxton Water for brewing?

Post by Galena » Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:14 pm

LeeH wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:20 pm
Galena wrote:
Mashman wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:30 pm
Ask the guys at Buxton Brewery?
Is that what they use then? Can't see anything on their website about the water they use
How did I miss this thread!

I doubt they import it from Yorkshire!


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I'm not sure of the point you are making, if you have one?

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