Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

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Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:07 pm

Does anyone know the density of AMS/CRS acid blend?
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:37 pm

Density or specific gravity? I can drop my hydrometer into some, if knowing the SG would help you.

Why do you want to know?

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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:33 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:37 pm
Density or specific gravity? I can drop my hydrometer into some, if knowing the SG would help you.

Why do you want to know?

Guy
Hydrometer SG will work. I know how to convert SG into density. Thanks!!!
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:37 pm

As an aside, are AMS and CRS the exact same thing, or is there a slight difference in the acid blend or the acid strength? We can't buy it in the States, so I'm considering nominally cloning it for personal use.
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Eric » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:15 pm

AMS is a product by Murphy and Son for commercial breweries in units of 12.5, 25, 200 and 1000 kg. I believe Brewpaks were the first company to repackage Murphy's products in smaller units to supply home brewers, but under their own designations.
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:19 pm

AMS and CRS are the same. The SG at 13.6°C (it's chilly in my brewery tonight!) is 1.086.

With luck, someone on here may be able to give you the proportions of sulphuric and hydrochloric acids used to make CRS. Or perhaps it's a secret!

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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by killer » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:19 am

You can back calculate the concentrations with the information from the Murphyandson website.

35 mL in 1 hL reduces alkalinity by 64 ppm CaCO3 per Litre and adds 22.5 ppm Chloride and 31 ppm Sulphate respectively.
That means 1 mL removes approximately 183 ppm alkalinity (as CaCO3) and adds 64 ppm Chloride and 88.6 ppm sulphate per Litre.
Convert CaCO3 to HCO3 = 221 ppm alkalinity as Bicarbonate
No. of moles = concentration x volume (n = c x v) rearranged gives conc = n/v, c = (0.22143/61)/0.001, c = 3.63 Normal (not Molar because the sulphuric acid is diprotic (neutralises two bicarbonates))
If 1 mL adds 64 ppm Chloride then c = n/v ((0.064/36.5)/0.001) so 1.80 molar HCl.
If 1 mL adds 88.6 ppm Sulphate then c = n/v ((0.0886/98)/0.001 so 0.9 molar H2SO4.

That all seems to add up…

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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:28 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:19 pm
AMS and CRS are the same. The SG at 13.6°C (it's chilly in my brewery tonight!) is 1.086.

With luck, someone on here may be able to give you the proportions of sulphuric and hydrochloric acids used to make CRS. Or perhaps it's a secret!

Guy
Thanks much!
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:34 pm

killer wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:19 am
You can back calculate the concentrations with the information from the Murphyandson website.

35 mL in 1 hL reduces alkalinity by 64 ppm CaCO3 per Litre and adds 22.5 ppm Chloride and 31 ppm Sulphate respectively.
That means 1 mL removes approximately 183 ppm alkalinity (as CaCO3) and adds 64 ppm Chloride and 88.6 ppm sulphate per Litre.
Convert CaCO3 to HCO3 = 221 ppm alkalinity as Bicarbonate
No. of moles = concentration x volume (n = c x v) rearranged gives conc = n/v, c = (0.22143/61)/0.001, c = 3.63 Normal (not Molar because the sulphuric acid is diprotic (neutralises two bicarbonates))
If 1 mL adds 64 ppm Chloride then c = n/v ((0.064/36.5)/0.001) so 1.80 molar HCl.
If 1 mL adds 88.6 ppm Sulphate then c = n/v ((0.0886/98)/0.001 so 0.9 molar H2SO4.

That all seems to add up…
Thanks much! I had previously calculated that they are equinormal at 1.81 mEq/mL per each acid, for a total acid strength of 3.66 mEq/mL, so we are completely on the same page here. For the Sulfuric Acid component 1.81 mEq/mL = 0.905 mmoles/mL or 0.905 molar.
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Cobnut » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:24 pm

Why would you recreate AMS rather than using a bespoke mix of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids to get to whatever mineral balance you are seeking?

I use AMS because it is readily available and easy to use, but if I couldn't obtain it and could "only" get the two acids separately, I think I'd use them individually.

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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:49 am

Highly tentatively I have it calculated at these two acid quantities, made up to 1 Liter of total overall volume with distilled or DI water:

151.4 mL of 37.2% Hydrochloric Acid
49.9 mL of 98% Sulfuric Acid

Would someone check my work to verify this please.

If nominally correct, it may prove easier to round the measures to 151 mL of HCL and 50 mL of H2SO4, and meter via using graduated cylinders.
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:59 am

Cobnut wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:24 pm
Why would you recreate AMS rather than using a bespoke mix of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids to get to whatever mineral balance you are seeking?

I use AMS because it is readily available and easy to use, but if I couldn't obtain it and could "only" get the two acids separately, I think I'd use them individually.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.
Indeed it may prove better overall to have the acid retain the very same 3.66 mEq/mL strength, but have it deliver equal mg/L's of Cl- and SO4-- ions. This might get close:

175 mL of 37.2% Hydrochloric Acid
43 mL of 98% Sulfuric Acid
Make up to 1 Liter with DI water

If I'm looking at this correctly it looks like 1 mL of this acid blend added to 1 Liter of water would contribute close to an essentially equal ~75 to 76 mg/L each of Cl- and SO4-- ions, and also come in right close to being ~3.66 mEq/mL in acid strength. Again I ask someone to check this and verify/refine/correct.
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by orlando » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:59 am

What will you do if you want a sulphate or chloride forward Beer?
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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by McMullan » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:27 am

Eric wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:15 pm
AMS is a product by Murphy and Son for commercial breweries in units of 12.5, 25, 200 and 1000 kg. I believe Brewpaks were the first company to repackage Murphy's products in smaller units to supply home brewers, but under their own designations.

Thanks much, Eric! If I didn’t know my arse from my elbow on the matter and someone took time to inform me - after I posted a request for information - it would be incredibly rude of me not to acknowledge their help. I ask someone to check this and verify/refine/correct. Pretty sure I’m right, though. At least that’s how I was brought up, with the odd thick ear to promote a shallow learning curve.

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Re: Density Inquiry for AMS (CRS)

Post by killer » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:38 am

I think Cobnut was spot on. In the UK, CRS/AMS is used because it can be difficult to get food grade Hydrochloric acid. Using individual HCl and H2SO4 is a superior way of doing things as it won’t lock the Chloride/ Sulphate ratio added via the acid.

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