Very soft water / High Mash PH

[Sunter0100]

I live in an area with very soft water with very low mineral content. I have had my water analysed by Phoenix Analytical and use the figures in the Graham Wheeler Water Treatment Calculator. The alkalinity is only 20 CaCO3 so there are no recommendations for reducing this further.

I brew mostly pale ales in a Braumeister. I put the water treatment additions directly in the water and treat all 30 litres of water at the same time. I then mash in the Braumeister with around 25 litres of water, adding the remaining 5 litres after the mash has finished. On recent brews my mash PH has been around 5.7-5.8 (on a digital calibrated PH meter, so I know this is accurate). Everything I have read suggests I would have a low mash PH based on my water and I would not need to add any acid as my alkalinity was already quite low. I also checked out Bru'n'water and that also suggested my Mash PH would come out at 5.2. I am a bit lost on why my Mash PH is coming out so high? Does anybody think any of the below will help me get the Mash PH in to a more desirable range:

1. Use CRS/AMS in the mash to bring the PH down. Will this work if the alkalinity in the water is already low?
2. Reduce the volume of water in the mash to 20 litres?
3. Add all of the water treatment additions to the grist to get a higher calcium sulphate level in the mash?

Due to the very low mineral content I am already adding a lot of Gypsum, so am reluctant to keep adding more to bring the mash PH level down in case I start to get a mineral taste in the finished beer.

Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

[guypettigrew]

One quick thought; you use a digital pH meter. Do you calibrate it with pH 4.0 and pH 7.0 buffers before taking the readings?

Guy

[Sunter0100]

Yes the PH meter has been calibrated using 3 buffers and deionised water. So pretty sure the readings are correct.

[nickjdavis]

Treating your entire water 30L water volume in one go effectively is diluting your salt additions, resulting in some of the salts staying in the sparge liquor where they are not needed and not going in the mash....where they are needed. Some salts are also not as soluble directly in water as they are in the mash....so you may find that as well as diluting the salts over a larger volume, they are not dissolving well, further reducing their affect on the mash.

In your instance I would do two things...

1) Add the salts and mix them directly in with the grain, not to the liquor.
2) Reduce your mash liquor volume to 23L

Even with soft water and all pale beers you may still find that you need some sort of acid addition to help get your pH down to the correct level as the pale malts may not have the capacity to acidify the mash as much as "software" and other calculators might suggest.

If you are brewing consistently pale beers, I would recommend you keep a record of what additions you use in each brew and use that to fine tune successive brews until you get to a position you are comfortable with.

For the record...I brewed on a BM20 for 6 years, and the above is exactly how I treated my water....and yes...even using mostly liquor with low alkalinity I still found the need to add a small amount of lactic acid to get my mash pH where it was needed.

[Sunter0100]

That is great and makes a lot of sense. I will try that next brew. Thank you

[Eric]

Hi Sunter, by the construction of your query, it seems you were not surprised by your pH measurement. Water is part of the equation, the other is the grain, and while you say you brew mostly pale ales, the range of grains used do vary in their influence on pH, even those of similar colour contribution.

When Graham wrote his Calculator, single pot systems were not in common use. Typically then, for every kg of grist the mash would have 1.5 litres of liquor. In other terms, with your water a mash would have the equivalent of 30mg of CaCO3 per kg of grain. You can do the maths, but it seems in your Braumeister there would likely have been the equivalent of 70mg of CaCO3 per kg of grain, more suitable for a dark beer. I would suggest you use CRS to eliminate the addition alkalinity present in your mash. 1 ml of CRS will neutralise 183mg of CaCO3, basically that in 9 litres of your water and by my rough calculations will require an addition of 2ml to your mash liquor.

Unmalted ingredients such as maize, flaked barley, torrified wheat as well as malted wheat, extra pale malted barley, lager malts cause higher pH than pale ale malts, so may need extra compensation to achieve a precise pH. Calcium in a mash does not eliminate alkalinity, that happens during the boil. In sufficient quantity, calcium bonds with phosphates from malt forming an insoluble compound and deposits, liberating hydrogen ions. As pH is −log10 of hydrogen ion concentration, pH is lowered.

Due to the very low mineral content I am already adding a lot of Gypsum, so am reluctant to keep adding more to bring the mash PH level down in case I start to get a mineral taste in the finished beer.

I understand your fears. Had I read that in early days, it could well have slowed my progress or led to giving up. Don't allow me stop you brewing with low calcium levels if it gives you the satisfaction you desire, but do you stand in fear when faced with 10 or 20 hand pumps on a bar in case you choose one with a minerally taste?

Limit your calcium to 200ppm unless making really high gravity beers and you'll be fine. Small proportions of crystal malts or black malt will lower pH without adding much extra flavour.

[Sunter0100]

Thank you Eric for the very comprehensive reply, it is much appreciated and is now starting to make more sense to me. I will try using 2ml of CRS in my next mash and see how that goes.

[MashBag]

If it makes life easier give up sparging and do one batch of water.
I have run a BM for years and find very little gain in sparging.

[IPA]

I have a BM, two in fact,and I sparge with one litre per kilo of grain. After grain absorbtion and lost volume during the boil if you don't sparge there will not be be much wort left to ferment !!!. Unless you add liquor after the boil. In that case it makes sense to sparge in order to extract the the maximum fermentables.
Using this method my OGs usually come out bang on the forecast using 83% efficiency in the calculation. Even then it is necessary to liquor back in order to have the desired volume.

[MashBag]

We sort of do the same, by topping up, but at a different points.

I flood the malt tube (think Lodo method) with around 38 litres so there is no splashing - or even trickle. I overnight mash.
Next I remove malt pipe and run away. Boil is autonomous, so it makes no sense to me to waste time sparging or extra electricity and theres absolutely minimal gain IMO. I then just return for hop additions.


Next day I top up (on the center rod) pre-ferment.

Different folks different strokes.

[f00b4r]

As Eric has pointed out though, the problem with a thinner mash (exacerbated even more by full volume mashing) is that the amount of salts per kg of malt changes, so you may need to target lower alkalinity to hit a good mash pH.

[MashBag]

Agreed.
It's also probably worth doing a few runs of exactly the same recipe to experiment with the water treatment, that way, by just changing one thing you can see & taste (all the way through) the effect.

[f00b4r]

You can also do mini mash (same grist and ratio to water but much smaller scale) using a low oven and glass jars or even pre heated thermos flasks.
You can even do 3 at once for almost the same effort (one at the assumed correct alkalinity adjustment and one either side of the value) and it will probably give you an rough idea what to adjust to if you are off with your assumed figure; it won’t let you derive an exact figure but will probably help you get very close.
Mini mashes are not a new idea but I don’t think many brewers make use of them, even when using a grist that they know may cause potential issues. The doing three at once I have shamelessly stolen from previous discussions with Eric.

[guypettigrew]

Agreed.
It's also probably worth doing a few runs of exactly the same recipe to experiment with the water treatment, that way, by just changing one thing you can see & taste (all the way through) the effect.

C'mon, MB, who is ever going to do that?!

Better to keep brewing the sort of beers you like and you'll soon see what effect the water treatment has.

Guy

[MashBag]

You can also do mini mash (same grist and ratio to water but much smaller scale) using a low oven and glass jars or even pre heated thermos flasks.
You can even do 3 at once for almost the same effort (one at the assumed correct alkalinity adjustment and one either side of the value) and it will probably give you an rough idea what to adjust to if you are off with your assumed figure; it won’t let you derive an exact figure but will probably help you get very close.
Mini mashes are not a new idea but I don’t think many beers make use of them, even when using a grist that they know may cause potential issues. The doing three at once I have shamelessly stolen from previous discussions with Eric.

Brilliant idea. Good shout (& Eric).